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Thread: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    NOTE: I WILL BE MAKING GENERALIZATIONS, please take what I am saying in context. thanks.

    - For those of you unfamiliar with Orange County, it is not only the home of whites, Asians, and Hispanics (not a lot of black people, weird...)but a big Arab (and/or Muslim, because technically Persia was not originally considered "arab") & Indian population as well. Of all the Muslim cultures, there is a HUGE Iranian/Persian contingent, and they are the only Muslim guys that come into the club. SERIOUsly.
    not ONE TIME have I ever heard "Egyptian, Iraqi, Kuwaiti, Jordanian, Lebanese..." NOTHING. they are ALL PERSIAN. so, what's the problem?
    they treat women (here comes the generalization) like shit. Every Persian guy I have talked to/danced for has been 1.) rude 2.) cheap 3.)REALLy dirty/won't listen to the word "no" 4.) all of the above.

    My problems with this: first of all, after yet ANOTHER bad episode with a Persian customer who wanted me to be his cheap-little-whore-running-napkins-TWICE-to-clean-up-premature-ejaculations-and-yelling-at-me-when-I-refused, then attempting to rip me off for dances, I almost WANT to discriminate in the club and stop asking them for dances!! which is terrible!!!
    Second problem: Before i started stripping, my first experience with a Persian guy was one I dated quickly, and it rocked! He wasn't too connected to the culture, but it was very fun, and he was very respectful, NOTHING like these guys as the club. This threw me for a loop....
    Third problem: Why is it that whenever I feel myself put down by foreign-born men in some sort of authoritative position (boss, customer, etc.) I want to say "this is America, you respect women here." I never feel much patriotism, except when it comes to women's/human rights, and I see how i could be treated. I hate the sense of automatic entitlement to women that some cultures think they have... This reminds me of when my old very very awesome Egyptian GNC boss sold the store to a very very NOT cool Korean boss and for the next 3 months I trained his entire family in how to run the store, and was rewarded by being yelled at every day in broken english and listening to him yell at his wife, too.

    My bottom line- I am open to (people and custy-wise) any shape, size, color, background; just treat me right and don't be an asshole. However, when almost every person belonging to a certain group acts in a certain way, there must be a certain pattern to ascertain.
    PLEASE i'd love to get some feedback on this......

  2. #2
    Featured Member francescadubois's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    All right, I'm gonna keep it real. I have had the same experience with Persian guys that aren't like 2nd generation Persian-American (they're usually cool). And I'm guilty of the same thing. I will walk up to one but if I hear a thick accent, I usually back off very quickly unless he is very demure (ha). So I don't really think you're being racist. Maybe you're recognizing the cultural differences and you don't wanna put up with it?
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    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Whether this be the right thing or wrong thing to do, I think that if you can identify a certain group of customers that you do not get along with then avoid them. You dont have to be rude about it, but avoid the stress, its not worth it.

    For me its a different group of customers. - Outside of work no problem, inside work I find them rude more often than not. I just keep smiling and if they smile back and give a friendly vibe Ill stop and talk, if not ill keep moving. I dont think you can judge a whole race or group of people based on strip club behaviour - just keep it as a personal work thing (-:


    >>"this is America, you respect women here." <<

    Unfortunatly thats not true.

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    AussiePunk, you're right about the respect thing- i meant it as a very idealistic expression- i wish it were true! The strange thing about our job is that is puts us in a position to see some peoples' true nature... for example, I TRY not to carry these assumptions outside of work because I am not often in a position of submission and rejection- (i don't randomly cater to male needs outside of work and deal with their bullshit chauvinistic attitudes because I want what's in their wallet). Nor do they get the chance, in a society where women have the same protected legal, social, and economic rights as men, to act upon these attitudes. However, when I see it acted out in a place (the SC) where it is "acceptable" to degrade women, I have to think twice about my perceptions regarding first-generation guys from certain cultures...

    and yes, Francesca, I too have noticed a huge diff. between 1st/2nd gen. guys and attitudes.

    But honestly it's hard not to think about it OTC... I mean, a guy can want weird S&M shit ITC and still be a respectful, semi-normal guy... and I won't think twice about it. But a guy wanting to act out all kinds of patriarchal bullshit NOT JUST during the dance but in all aspects of my communication with him... that's completely different/

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    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    You are not be racist. If you was racist, you will hate all races. You are just smart about whats going on! If your gut say no. Than do not go! Being a dancer, you have to know how to spend your time. Who to spend your time with! Which is sort like gambling. If you do not feel comfterable because of pass experience or things you seen. Stick with what you are comfterable with!
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    Featured Member greggy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    ^^^ Um, not true. It is possible for one to be racist against one race and not all of them.

    Do I think the OP is racist? Not at all. I've had different experiences with different groups (by age, race, gender) and I find that I interact with each group differently ITC. I'm still fair, respectful and friendly, but I do what makes me comfortable. Embyr, I think you should still approach everyone as you normally would, but ditch the custy the minute you're feeling disrespected.

    Keep in mind that the way these guys treat women ITC (and this goes for all types) may be different than the way they treat women OTC. That's because, in their mind, women ITC are a different kind of woman. Not the type that you could take home to mom, but more like the prostitute that you can pay to do whatever you want to... therefore, they don't need to respect us. Now, we all know that's not true, but unfortunately, many guys (thankfully not all) see it that way.

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    God/dess JustJayda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Quote Originally Posted by greggy

    Keep in mind that the way these guys treat women ITC (and this goes for all types) may be different than the way they treat women OTC. That's because, in their mind, women ITC are a different kind of woman. Not the type that you could take home to mom, but more like the prostitute that you can pay to do whatever you want to... therefore, they don't need to respect us. Now, we all know that's not true, but unfortunately, many guys (thankfully not all) see it that way.

    Expertly stated^^
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    ^^^ arguably, this stems from the 'uniqueness' of the North American strip club industry, which is able to sell a 'fantasy'. In many parts of the world, it is expected that girls are selling the 'real thing', and quite a few truly 'foreign' guys have trouble grasping the concept that our strip clubs are not brothels ! Of course, the fact that more than a few strip clubs ARE little more than brothels these days makes grasping the concept even more confusing for truly 'foreign' guys !

    Keep in mind that the way these guys treat women ITC (and this goes for all types) may be different than the way they treat women OTC. That's because, in their mind, women ITC are a different kind of woman. Not the type that you could take home to mom, but more like the prostitute that you can pay to do whatever you want to... therefore, they don't need to respect us.
    yes for sure, and this concept is particularly strong given the historical culture of 'Persia' ... which I suspect leads to views of women ITC as modern day 'harem girls'. But in fact this view of women ITC being for 'entertainment' isn't unique to 'Persians', but also has roots in Hispanic culture, Roman/Italian culture, Asian culture etc. The obvious example is probably the HBO Soprano's concept of the 'goomar', who is temporarily paid / 'kept' to provide 'entertainment' in the complete sense of the word - but who is never accorded 'equal' status or a significant role in the man's actual 'life' i.e. family / business.
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    Last edited by Melonie; 11-12-2006 at 06:30 AM.

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    Veteran Member Collegegirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    If you read my thread about the guy who wipped his dick out.... He was Palastinian(sp?)

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    Moderator Optimist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    It's a numbers game and you want to rack up the most dances in the shortest amount of time. That's gonna be hard if you keep gettin bummed by these assholes--of any stripe. So, I agree, run like the wind the moment you get an abusive reaction from a guy.

    I forgot to say, sometimes Your chemistry isn't so hot with a local clique. With this clique it sucks but with another it will be great. For instance: in AC I KILL with bachelor parties but in Myrtle I don't. I have to pick one instead of dancing for the group. Find your group and stick to 'em like glue.
    Last edited by Optimist; 11-12-2006 at 08:16 AM.

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    Veteran Member sassfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    To them and in their culture, the minute he associates you (a woman) with stripping you are not to be respected and should be treated accordingly. I mean, the extremist muslim make it perfectly clear that they think America is immoral and evil. Why are you surprised by their actions?

    I'm not going to go to the deep south and be surprised that some whites will be racist.

    By the way, is that a corgi in your avatar? I have a corgi.

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    Featured Member sunnie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Its not really about race, per say, it's a cultural thing. Where I work, I avoid the Russian guys because they tend to be the ones I have to fight off during dances (trying to touch under the g-string, etc) and expect sex. Too much trouble for me.

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    Featured Member nicole84's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Embyr - I totally understand what you are talking about. The manager at my old club "persian" (even though by time he was born, it was no longer that), and so was the owner. Both of them were vehemently racist, anti-semitic, and had no respect for women. They had slightly, and i mean slightly, more for women who just happened to come in as customers, but even then, not much. It is a cultural thing. Indeed, it is better the further down the generations you go, but even that is dependent on how strongly it was believed in their families.

    I dont get many muslim customers in the clubs I've been in, and wouldn't care if I did, as long as they were respectful. However, my experience so far, has led me to think that wouldn't be very likely.

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    Featured Member Miss_Luscious's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    nicole, did you work at Good Guys? I did about 4-5 years ago and the manager and owner were persian. And complete assholes. The manager would yell at us and say "All you bitches get out of the dressing room and get down stairs!" He would yell at the other girls and say all types of nasty disrespectful stuff. It was crazy. He was pretty nice to be though.
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    Featured Member nicole84's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    ^^^^^ yep, I did.

    Its not the same manager, but I know who you are talking about. The new one doesn't cuss quite as much, but thats about the only difference. They were generally ok to me, but I also was the "goody two shoes" in the place, so I never gave them even the slightest reason to get pissy with me. I also made sure they didn't know I was jewish.

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    Featured Member AkashaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Hmm, that is rough to deal with--especially when its most of the client base. A good kick to the nuts may fix that. Maybe you should be reall bitchy and dominant and see if they pipe down. Mid-east guys dont like me typically--so i dont have to worry about them.

    why do iranis still call themselves persian? (out of curiousity)
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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnie
    Its not really about race, per say, it's a cultural thing. Where I work, I avoid the Russian guys because they tend to be the ones I have to fight off during dances (trying to touch under the g-string, etc) and expect sex. Too much trouble for me.
    No suprise there. Russian stripclubs are definately full-service this the possible exception of the Rhino in Moscow. Also, the culture is still pretty sexist. I personally have had good experiences with russian men, but its different when you speak the language.

    I could tell a good and bad story of every nationality out there. At one point I was dating this Egyptian hottie, and he was hanging out in the club while I was working. A group of Lebanese guys came in. I went to give one a dance and he told me to stop. I blew him off thinking he was just acting jealous. THEN, in the corner, this little old lebanese man tried to rape me! Literally, this man was pushing 70 and I had to fight him off. Turns out the group of guys were sitting next to me and talking shit about me in Arabic, calling me a whore, etc. He was trying to be noble. I don't know what that story really tells about cultural relations, its just anecdotes. We all have something that clouds our judgement.

    The funniest group is the little japanese tourists. They are so quiet and demure, and they've always spent on me. But a few times I've gotten one in the corner that was a little bold, and have been grabbed and groped. But for the most part they are good customers.

    The trick is to be able to distinguish the good from the bad as quickly as possible. If you approach them and they start obviously talking about you in another language, trying to grab, or asking about sex, just walk away quickly. If you care about other girls in the club, it might even be a good idea to inform management.

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Quote Originally Posted by AkashaM

    why do iranis still call themselves persian? (out of curiousity)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_naming_dispute

    Every Iranian I know calls themselves Persian, but says they are from Iran. Its habitual but interchangeable. Especially for Iranians that left early, before the Revolution....

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
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    Member KinkySyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    You are NOT racist, nor you are 'culturally hesitant'.
    In the Parisian suburbs, which are the opposites to yours with a modest population living there, we (french/white women) do have a problem with muslim men - most of them from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia - who treat 'free' women like shit when they 'dare' to wear a miniskirt or bleach their hair blonde. Seems like they think a girl wearing sexy clothes obviously wants to have sex with any guy.
    In my Junior High I've heard several cases of collective rapes all by muslims on white girls. All under 16 years old. I don't know the situation in Orange County but what happens here in France is just scary. These people are so harsh.

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    God/dess
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    I think it's important not to make these general characteristics sound universal, though. (as the OP did point out). I remember one iranian regular who wasn't 'disrespectful' in the way you describe...he kept trying to convince me to quit dancing, and was all weird about 'cleanliness' (I wasn't allowed to touch his hands, hair, or face)...I think it may have be OCD. ANYWAY, sure he was a little condescending, but many, many white guys are the exact same way, young or old. He was very respectful of my boundaries.

    I am guilty of choosing some customers over others myself, however. Indian men (like Indian immigrants, not necessarily those who are second generation) I can't dance for often because of the curry smell. Curry on anyone I can't handle. I got really crazy sick off a curry meal a few years ago, and ever since the smell makes me feel very ill. So if I talk to an Indian guy and get a curry smell, I try not to dance for them, but the same would be true of a white, black, native american, or korean guy- if they've eaten curry, forget it!!

    Interestingly it was an Indian guy who accused me of being racist because I refused to kiss him during the dance. I was like dude, I don't kiss anyone. But he was sure he was being discriminated.

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    Quote Originally Posted by sassfire
    To them and in their culture, the minute he associates you (a woman) with stripping you are not to be respected and should be treated accordingly. I mean, the extremist muslim make it perfectly clear that they think America is immoral and evil. Why are you surprised by their actions?

    I'm not going to go to the deep south and be surprised that some whites will be racist.

    By the way, is that a corgi in your avatar? I have a corgi.
    No, This was NOT about Muslim men- this was about the Persian men in Orange county who come into my club and how to handle them- I have had generally good relations with lots of different Muslim guys in boh working and dating environments (Pakistani, Egyptian, Lebanese, and Persian, although 2nd gen. there) and except for the Persian guy I dated they were all 1st gen., too...
    I don't think the extremism/terrorism debat has ANYthing to do with this....

    yes that is a corgi, the original embyr (that's right, this dorky stripper took her dog's name because she liked it so much and hell we're both redheads anyway.)

    Thank you everyone for such terrific responses....Greggy, what you said about ITC respect vs. OTC respect makes a lot of sense...
    Melonie's comment about modern-day "harem girls" also does, though!

    Nicole I don't think I'd say anything about being my being jewish to these guys either...

    I can definitely understand the Russian debate... after the fall of Communism the Russian sex industry has been booming, as has the illegal sex trade and sex trafficking... russian girls are trafficked everywhere, (as are women from many other e. euro countries) and the earnings ratio post communism shows a HUGE disparity in rights... during communism women earned about 80% of what men did, now it's around 35%... and their jobs were the first to go. obviously, women were not quite as important as men- not surprised you'd see this in the club.
    I definitely understand "if he talks about you to his friend in a different language" because that immediately frames it in an objectifying "us vs. them" scenario... ugh! and that's what happened with the asshole yesterday anyway!

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    Veteran Member sassfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    ***No, This was NOT about Muslim men- this was about the Persian men in Orange county who come into my club and how to handle them- I have had generally good relations with lots of different Muslim guys in boh working and dating environments (Pakistani, Egyptian, Lebanese, and Persian, although 2nd gen. there) and except for the Persian guy I dated they were all 1st gen., too...
    I don't think the extremism/terrorism debat has ANYthing to do with this....
    ***

    My apologies, however even if you eliminate the extremist muslim part it is still a cultural thing. Some culturals do not think that women should be strippers. Not every nation is a liberated as what you want them to be. Currently I work as a nurse, and some men from certain nations have an attitude with the female nurses. They shush them away, and are extremely critical of them. That's just the way that they are. You can't change generations of thinking.

    You aren't a dorky stripper. Lighten up, corgies are the king of castle. At least he is in my house.

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    You aren't a dorky stripper. Lighten up, corgies are the king of castle. At least he is in my house.[/QUOTE]

    haha yes they are just ask the Queen! (although hers seem to turn off all the ambassadors by biting ankles...)

    yeah, I think it's the part of me saying, "do these men think that I SHOULD be in this position?" it's hard to turn that off when it's getting reinforced by their behavior.

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    This isn't about Islam. Many cultures that have a high degree of gender disparity aren't Muslim. For instance, most Russians are christian Orthodox. Many indians are Hindu, etc.....

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  25. #25
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Am I being racist or "culturally hesitant?"

    I do understand where the OP is coming from. Ladies, when you meet Old World jerks, thank your lucky stars you were born in a country where you're not beholden to such men. To be born a woman in a Westernized nation is a gift from God.

    That being said, I don't deal with Middle Eastern men for different reasons. I was raised in what you might term a "redneck" culture so I won't give men like that a second of my time.

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