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Thread: Our Legal Rights....???

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    God/dess ExoticEngineer's Avatar
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    Our Legal Rights....???

    Okay girls (and guys) I have a question for you all......I am in Arizona, a right to work state, and things are tricky hee when it comes to employment alone...but as an independant contractor things are even worse. I need information about our legal rights as dancers or independant contractors and I don't know how to find it.

    Any referrals to lawyers, web pages, links....anything would be helpful really.

    Specifically I want to know about fees, fines and charges the clubs "enforce" us to pay.....deadlines and if we refuse to pay them money beyond the required house fee.....and more questions like that.

    Thanks for the help.

    ~B




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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    As independent contractors, dancers work on a 'business to business' basis with clubs. Thus independent contractor dancers have essentially no 'rights' in terms of employee labor laws, employee compensation laws, employee treatment laws etc. Essentially the independent contractor dancer's 'rights' boil down to accepting or refusing whatever sort of 'business to business' terms and conditions the club chooses to set down.

    In other words, as the operator of an independent business, in a 'business to business' relationship with another business, the club has the right to propose any sort of fee / fine / schedule it wants to, and you have the right to continue the 'business to business' relationship under those conditions, to attempt a renegotiation with no guarantee of success and no protection against the club deciding to terminate the business relationship, or to terminate the business relationship yourself. In a 'business to business' relationship that is the extent of independent contractor 'rights'.

    However, there IS a gray area which has been tried by other dancers in other states with mixed success. From what little bit of net searching I did, it would appear that the state of Arizona defers to the IRS definitions of what constitutes an independent contractor business relationship vs what constitutes an employer / employee relationship. Under those IRS definitions, a club may be vulnerable to a State Labor Board ruling that the conditions the club sets forth for dancers to work in their club constitutes an employer / employee relationship. If this were the case, then fines, fees (including house fees) etc. would all become illegal. However, if this were the case, then everything else that goes along with employee status would also come into effect - which is not necessarily a good thing for the club or for the dancers. You can use the search function with keyword 'employee dancer' to read previous discussions on this subject.

    two potential links for you - the first appears to be just the kind of local lawyer you'd need to bring an action against your club .....

    the second is a summary of the actions that some California dancers instituted over the same sort of issues ... <-- with the added comment that, subsequent to the date this article was written, the dancers 'won' the class action suit brought against Deja Vu in San Francisco (actually, the club agreed to settle)
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-18-2006 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    Thank you for that information, it had some other ties to other issues that I can look up. For the msot part I understand and agree with house fees, much like paying rent at a salon to conduct biz there..... The issue I am having right now is enforcing a mandatory tip out fee, at a manadatory amount and if that fee is not paid by a certain time then it will be doubled and if not paid at all, you will be asked to leave. This is ON TOP OF the house fee.

    This "mandatory tip out fee" is split between two workers and a percentage is sent to......get ready for it.... The Owner.

    I highly doubt demanding a tip from a dancer and threatening to let her go if she doesn't pay, or doubeling the amount is legal. It reeks of something not good.

    I'll keep poking around and see what else is out there. I think between Arizona being a right to work state and the fact that IC's are at risk of being taken advantage of here...it's a no win situation.

    Thank you though.




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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    This whole business is a winless situation UNLESS new progressively minded people like us gradually take over the clubs and run them fairly. In Phoenix just as in most major club markets, dancers are a dime a dozen. Make too much of a fuss and you're out the door. They don't need us. In smaller markets where they need dancers, fees are less and fines nonexistant.

    What kinds of problems are you having regarding fines and fees? Is the club asking more of you than the standard house fee, DJ tip out and bouncer tip outs?

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    Yep. They ask for the house fee (no problem). Then they have what they call a "minimum", which is a tip out that is divided up, one part to Dj, one part to house mom and one part to the owner. I have no problem tipping the house mom or the dj or the doormen. We all work hard there and we all help eachother out.....

    The issue is that recently they have told us that the tip will be a certain amount, non negotiable, and that if that certain amount of tip is not paid by a certain time then the amount will double. And then if we fail to pay that amount all together we can leave, for good.
    On top of this we have been hearing rumors that there will be higher house fees if we fail to work more than 3 or 4 days a week.
    Now, having danced for a while, I totally understand the need to ensure girls are in the club and somewhat regularly...it's good for biz, it's good for the girls, etc.... and paying "rent" to work at a club is also VERY reasonable.
    The rest....no not so much.

    I have been searching online all day today, and it seems to me that here in Az there isn't much a girl can do but either accept it or leave to find a new club....which is what most everyone does anyway...but how far will it go? I can't force a customer to tip me, I can't threaten him if he doesn't....how is it a club can? Argh....

    I am just very frustrated about it all....it just seems wrong to me. I signed a contract saying I was an independent contractor, and therefore accountable for my actions and behaviour while working, responisble for my own income, etc..... but if that much is true, then the rest doesn't fit in.....

    Seriosuly. I need to quit b*tching about this and move on...I don't see any way around all this.




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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    I should add, that this is ON TOP OF many other things going on at the club that are out of hand.... I was just curious about the legal side of it. If it were just this issue then I wouldn't be so concerned.....




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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    You're at good ole' Steve Cooper's club huh? I worked for him in Memphis some years back and besides being a racist (telling white dancers they were selling out if they danced for a black guy), he is an old greedy cus.

    Many clubs I have worked at want the house fee to be paid when you get to work. Girls try to run out and not pay, and it's hard for the managers to keep up with the money. Obviously they are looking at ways to minimze losses and make up for lost money/business. These club owners are just greedy, plus the club has a lot of overhead and I'm sure the customer count and revenue stream is less than in years past, so again they are looking to the dancers to subsidize it.

    I don't think you have much recourse as more girls want to work there than they could hire.
    If you can't work 3-4 days every week, maybe you should consider another club that is more flexible. if more girls spread around to other clubs, those clubs could become more profitable than Christie's was.

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    That's the plan right now.....go head out to other clubs in the valley. The house fee isn't a problem ever, some places it's high, some places it low...it's the other stuff that really gets me.

    Yah, Steve Cooper, racist, greedy and a few other choice adjectives might apply to him.....

    Well thank you for the info and the pep talk.

    ~B




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    Veteran Member Jo Weldon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    It's not like a salon to me. Salons don't charge people to get in or sell $8 beers, or charge 20% on "funny money" transactions.
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    I would be really interested in knowing about the "independant contractor" status at least here in the south.

    I say that because I heard about the Cheetah in Sarasota, FL. case in around 1998 or '99 where a fired dancer sued the owner for all the house fees she paid over the years. I'm not a lawyer so I obvisously am only privy to the rumors but I heard that she won the case based on the clubs stipulations placed upon the dancers. Courts ruled that "independant contractors" cannot have that many rules placed upon them, and that the dancers were in fact employees. That changed everything. You can't charge employees money or something like that...

    I was told (by managers who worked at that club) that the owner had to dig up all the records on every former dancer and pay back every dollar. The club policy regarding house fees changed after that, I do know that for a fact. House fees were eliminated but they stipulated that if you wanted to dance there you had to pay for a locker. Locker fees each night were pretty expensive.

    -E
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    Reading all this, I am glad I walked out after the first merchandise dance on my first night at CC Tempe. I really want to find another club to work because boredom becomes a problem for me if I stay at the same place too long, but clearly CC is not the one for me.


    For all its 'issues', at least HiLiter doesn't bullshit us like that I simply can't deal with paying some shithead to tell ME what time I can work and how much to "tip" club staff, etc. Screw that!!

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    Veteran Member Damia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    We should post a list of common Stripper rights we shoul look for in all of our contracts
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    ^^^ This would be a great idea, common stripper rights that are legitimate.

    "Courts ruled that "independant contractors" cannot have that many rules placed upon them, and that the dancers were in fact employees. That changed everything. You can't charge employees money or something like that... "

    This is what I have found in my search of labor laws and independent contractor laws, being an independent contractor has it's flaws...but the upside is how many rules and stipulations are enforced upon us, or I should say are NOT supposed to be enforced upon us.
    From what I have read so far, even for strip clubs, you can't have it both ways. Either we are true independent contractors or we are employees.
    The issue seems to be that no one wants to press the matter because then the true amount of how much money we all make will come to light. Then we would deal with taxes, regulation, etc. So to keep our dollars under the radar we allow SC owners to impose employee-like rules upon us without enjoying employee-like benefits.
    Kind of a catch 22 huh?

    As Tina put it, it is a winless situation.
    And my curiosity was really just that.....as much as I would love to stand on a soap box in my thong and 6" heels and shout that we strippers need to rally together for our "independent contractor" rights..... Well, yah, that's about as far as I got with that thought.
    But I would like to have enough knowledge, so that when I DO tell Cooper's minion's to go shove it where the sun don't shine for walking all over a great group of women, I don't sound like a complete ass.

    I don't think that's too much to hope for. Heh.




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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    well, if you're seeking a Phyrric Victory over Cooper's club, an anonymous tip to the IRS combined with a simultaneous Labor Board complaint / class action suit threat from anonymous dancers would definitely 'draw some blood'. When threatened with a multi-year IRS audit, most clubs will be more than eager to agree to an IRS settlement which treats dancers as employees in lieu of the audit taking place ! The IRS of course loves the idea of dancers being treated as employees because this also means that their incomes will be automatically reported, that income taxes will be automatically withheld etc.

    Of course, like the San Francisco Deja Vu class action suit, while the dancers involved in the suit received some money, all future dancers are losing money in order to pay for it !

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    ^ ^ Yep, my earlier point exactly. Such a catch 22.

    While most of the club sh*t is bearable.... I think this club went a bit too far.

    So... I move on, and others will too, then one day the club will look around and say "Hey, where did all those hot girls go?"

    Nope, not seeking any victories here. Don't get me wrong...I'd love to see the relationship between clubs and dancers change for the better...but what I am seeking I guess is curiosity satisfaction... knowledge for future use.... and maybe some ammo under my belt in case the little man behind the desk decides to throw his weight around. Blah.....




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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    There are no common stripper rights...

    My old club (I'm retired) charged house fee, mandatory tip-out of floor earning to the floor guys (20%), Mandatory tip-out to housemom ($10), Mandatory tip-out to VIP host of VIP earnings (25%), Mandatory tip-out to DJ (10%), Mandatory funny money exchange (25%). By the time you get done tipping everyone out...they're making more than some of the dancers. If they took the mandatory tip out of 20% and divided it up amongst everyone...that would be one thing...but making EVERY dancer pay a high percentage of her earnings to every person that works there is just bull.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    ^^^ yup ... the bottom line seems to be that, absent any inherent 'rights' on the part of independent contractor dancers, the equation degenerates to ...

    the club instituting whatever sorts of fees, mandatory 'kickbacks', fines and other club revenue enhancing requirements it chooses to ... versus ... the club's ability to find sufficient independent contractor dancers to keep the stage full while agreeing to make these payments.

    As long as some girls are willing to keep working and put up with these payments, and as long as new girls are willing to come to work and put up with these payments (replacing girls who quit because they weren't willing to put up with these payments), the club will be able to keep charging these payments !!!

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    The club I work at charges a cheap (compared to most) house fee, but all the other things can add up in a big way!!! I dont really know how all clubs work but I will tell ya how mine goes, all may compare. We pay our house fee, thats fine, if we are 1 minute late to our shift (after 7pm) we are fined another $20 and if we are another hour late and 1 minute past that hour its another $20. If we dont have our house fee the second we walk in, its another $20 fine...it doesnt matter if we get within 10 mins...still $20. If we miss a scheduled day no matter what its an extra $20 on top of your house fee for that night. So on the weekdays it $50 to miss a scheduled day and on the weekend its $100!!! We have to be scheduled 3 days a week or we get fired. No questions. If we refuse to walk around with the stupid tip jar thing that they require us to do (everyone has to pay 1$ every hour)thats another $20. Late to stage $20, late to pick our music $20. It seems like everything we do has a fine attached to it. It gets really old, really fast...the owner is a complete and total asshole too, which doesnt help things. We have a mandatory tip out to the bouncers and emcee, which is fine but it should be at my discretion-the amount I mean. I mean really why should I have to tip a fixed amount to a bouncer who doesnt have my back? Not that it happens often but they should feel the monetary reprecussions of doing a shitty lazy half assed job. I had one bouncer once tell me to "mind my own business" when I informed him that the girl he just hired was getting fingered on the floor in front of everyone!!! Our club isnt like some of these fancy ones that have a champagne room, we have a VIP but its still pretty open...hardly any extras go on, not for lack of girls trying but because it is nearly impossible in the club. Everything is in the open. So when a girl does that on the main floor, everyone and I mean everyone can see it!! Which fucks up the business for all the clean girls because they all think this is the norm...boo. Ok I am done ranting now, since it has changed from informing to bitching! hehe

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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    See, that's just not right! On so many leveles! But Melonie and Tina both have it pegged. The clubs will keep on going the way they do, moving in cycles as the girls come and go.....because the bottom line is that no one really wants the IRS or Labor Board to get involved.

    So we bend over and take it with a smile until we find a better place to work.

    Talking with my very good friend last night and I discovered that a month ago when I was getting so "fed up" with this job, hating the custy's and feeling bad about myself....well, it wasn't the job that was changing. The job has always stayed the same, you flirt, you talk you dance you get paid you leave, tah dah! No, it was the club and the atmosphere that was changing to make it less fun and more stressfull.

    Do any of you (not the ones who book and travel) other girls go in cycles with clubs like that?



    *before I type ANY more I'd better go get some coffee*




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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    Interesting to hear what's going on at the Tempe club.

    At 32nd street we have a $15 minimum tip out: $10 for the DJ $5 for the housemom. It has to be paid by midnight (for night shift) solely out of respect for the housemom so she doesn't have to hunt us down on the floor. No double fee if it's not paid midnight. No mandatory tip out required over and above the $15. I think that is reasonable. Sometimes I tip more than the minimum, other nights I don't.

    As for house fees (I "heard" Tempe is more expensive) it is $37 before 8 pm, $47 after 8pm. It's supposed to be $55 after 9, but if you have school or kids they usually waive that.

    As for hourly rates, we can negotiate our own. I routinely sell $20 VIP dances and charge an hourly rate of $300/hour. The house has their "minimum" rate of $200 per hour in VIP, but if we negotiate a better rate with a customer, the hostesses will honor it.

    Most of the "rules" you are unhappy with are set by managers Taylor and Cindy. I was overjoyed when Mike G became the GM at 32nd St. I've seen Steve Cooper twice in the 4 years I've worked at CC-32nd St: he doesn't have much influence at what's happening in his clubs. Rather, the working environment of his clubs depends mostly on how heavy-handed the GM chooses to be.

    I'd get outta the Tempe Club ASAP. If you like the glamour of the CC chain, try the 32nd st club. I've been there for 4 of my 7 year dancing career, and am very happy. Otherwise, I'd try Bourbon St, HiLiter or Sonny's in Chandler. It sounds like you'd really like Sonny's:very low contact, 3 dances for $100 VIP rooms. If I didn't live a 5 miles from it, I'd work there!!!
    Rebecca Avalon







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    Default Re: Our Legal Rights....???

    I was looking for info on lawyers for a totally different reason and I found this thread from so many years back about the I work in. I have been there on and off for 3 years, but half the time I'm down in Tucson. Not much has changed. Last week on a dead monday they called 3 or 4 merchandise dances! WTF? Let a girl have some time to work this thin crowd. I was appalled.

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