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Thread: The Death Bell Rings Again

  1. #1
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default The Death Bell Rings Again

    According to the International Center for Prison Studies at King's College in London, more people are behind bars in the United States than in any other country. China ranks second with 1.5 million prisoners, followed by Russia with 870,000.

    Commenting on what the prison figures show about U.S. society, King said various social programs, including those dealing with education, poverty, urban development, health care and child care, have failed.

  2. #2
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    ^^^ and the new gov'ts answer to this problem will be ...

    let's throw even MORE tax money towards education programs, social programs for the poor a.k.a. welfare, urban development programs a.k.a. subsidized housing, health / child care a.k.a. WIC and medicaid ...

    Of course, the author didn't differentiate as to what percentage of persons incarcerated in American jails are American citizens vs. illegal aliens either !

    interesting GAO statistics ...

    "Here is a GAO Report (9-May-2005) for illegal alien arrest offenses of a study group population of 55,322 illegal aliens.

    In total, those 55,532 illegal aliens were arrested for almost 700,000 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal alien:
    [] Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
    [] Total number of arrests: 459,614.
    [] Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.
    [] Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.
    [] Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.
    __________

    Criminal offense: Drugs;
    Total offenses: Number: 166,722;
    Total offenses: Percent: 24%;
    Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 64,737;
    Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Percent: 24%;
    Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number: 101,985;
    Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Percent: 24%


    Then of course there is another point to consider ... i.e. the deliberate choice by the govt's of Britain, Germany, France etc. not to prosecute or incarcerate perpetrators of criminal acts committed by certain 'groups' living in certain 'zones', for fear of precipitating civil unrest that would overwhelm the capacity of local police dept's as well as the capacity of local jails. The French refer to this concept as 'Le Zone'. America has its own equivalent (i.e. New Orleans pre hurricane), as demonstrated by the huge increase in prosecutions and incarcerations of New Orleans refugees who relocated outside the 'zone' i.e. Texas, Georgia etc. My only point in raising this issue is that it's difficult to compare rates of incarceration when one country actually prosecutes and incarcerates criminals, whereas other countries make the conscious decision not to do so as long as those criminal activities stay more or less confined to members of specific population groups in their own 'zones' !
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-10-2006 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #3
    DJ Maimed
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Since our country is technically "at war" and since drugs effect human neurological systems thus could legally be described as a "nerve agent" then couldn't we classify these people as terrorists who entered the country with the intent to disseminate nerve agents on american citizens thus allowing our country full rights to "execute" them???? Just a thought.
    Last edited by DJ Maimed; 12-10-2006 at 01:25 PM.

  4. #4
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    ^^ in a word, NO ! It's tough enough to execute serial killers and actual islamic terrorists (which the courts recently ruled must essentially be treated as if they were American citizens in terms of due process and civilian courts).

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    WTF does this have to do with Dollar Den? This thread is pure Polit. Poo and you all know that!

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  6. #6
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Echo that, Kat. The migration from financial advice to political punditry sucked me in for a while, but it's why I stay out now - this thread being an obvious and singular exception.

  7. #7
    DJ Maimed
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Not tryin to go political poo'in since technically dollars are bein taken from all of our dens to pay for these people!!

  8. #8
    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Uh uh. Not buying it. This should be moved to the Member's Area.

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  9. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    well, I'll cease further commentary after citing the following economic fact from the state of NY - the cost to taxpayers to maintain an inmate in a NY state prison was $41,000 last year ... not counting the additional cost to taxpayers to provide social welfare benefits, subsidized housing, medicaid etc. for his family members while waiting for him to finish his sentence ! Thus maintaining inmates in prison under today's court mandated conditions is an extremely expensive proposition, which is arguably why some European countries don't do as much of it as America does !

    In addition, NY spent nearly $14k last year for every single student enrolled in grades K through 12. Figures for NY state spending on medicaid and other social welfare programs are impossibly muddled, though, as the state seems to make a particular effort to fragment the social spending budgets under as many different umbrellas of different state and local governmental agencies as possible.

    The supposed point of the Kings College study was to show that America wasn't doing enough to benefit its 'poor people' while doing much more than most to incarcerate people. I'll stand behind the financial point that America is spending more per capita in all of these areas than most of Europe does, and the Europe's results are actually no better than ours if they were measured using the same 'meter stick'.
    ~
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-10-2006 at 03:40 PM.

  10. #10
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    WTF does this have to do with Dollar Den? This thread is pure Polit. Poo and you all know that!
    This is in relation to this:



    Tons of people are wondering why the 90s money isn't happening even though we are sitting on record stock market gains.

    People read the DOW and think - "oh gee - everything is peachy go."

    Well obviously it is NOT. The country is falling apart around us and we refuse to see it. If we bother to look around, it is in our economic best interest. This post is an uncommon leading indicator about what is happening to the population in general compared to the DOW which goes well for only the wealthy.

  11. #11
    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    I'm eagerly anticipating anarchy, don't ask me why Deogal. I've always been a bit of an nihilist. One of my colleagues is going to help me buy a gun and practice shooting it.

    Yes, the system is fucked and I don't have a hardline stance on the perfect solution, I just don't have enough information or faither in my opinions anymore.

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  12. #12
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    I'm missing the real-dollar connection myself, except to the extent that the section could be renamed - "Political Poo - Economics Subsection."

    Yeah that we don't raise kids right, yeah that more funding of social programs doesn't mean a better society, yeah that everyone should be adjudged equally regardless of "zone" (and the courts haven't said terrorists must be given due process, but those accused of terrorism, and the distinction there is at the very heart of American values) - but other than arguing macrosocioeconomic theory, this doesn't do much for the spirit of .....

    .... let me see.... where is it.....

    oh, yeah.... "Taxes, investing, fees, other money question? Discuss it in the den!"

  13. #13
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Ya OK - whatever ya all just be myopic about shit.

    I am tired of catching flack on this fucking site.

  14. #14
    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Ya OK - whatever ya all just be myopic about shit.

    I am tired of catching flack on this fucking site.
    ::plays you a song with the world's smallest violin::

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

  15. #15
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Clearly, I'm miscommunicating. I'm just commenting on my view of the intended purpose of this section versus the way it's being used.

    That doesn't equate to "myopic" - it equates to "relevant."

    I'm no mod here. I'm just voicing my opinion, like you are. No one seems to be stopping either of us. I mean, aren't you giving me flack in return? Isn't that what a message board does?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    I am in noway arguing with the mods but I feel it's almost impossible to make a financial post without having political overtones. If we had a true free market it might be possible to separate the two but as we all know that is simply not so.
    All of this is great food for thought

  17. #17
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    ^^^ well, as mod, that's the dilemma I must face constantly. For a large number of American financial issues, gov't policy thus politics represents a huge financial variable. With income taxes representing a 25-40% hit for most dancers, it's impossible to ignore the impact of higher taxes. With gov't subsidies and tariffs / quotas being a huge factor in the alternative energy industries, it's impossible to ignore their impact in a discussion of Ethanol stocks, for example. Thus to exclude all financial topics that have gov't policy implications would 'sanitize' permissible DD discussions down to tax filings and 'vanilla' investments in the present tense.

    I have taken a position that as long as a DD thread has 51% financial content 49% gov't policy content (or any other related but non-financial content) that it is still an acceptable topic for discussion.

    Arguably, DJ Maimed's comment about capital punishment was off topic, but in a very blunt financial sense it represents the difference in cost to the US taxpayer ( i.e. most of us dancers as well as our customers ) of spending over $1 million to keep one prisoner incarcerated for life vs $100 worth of lethal injections. The $999k per prisoner cost difference ultimately is lost to the US private sector economy (times what, at least 1000 new 'lifers' per year ? ).

    The Kings College study out of the UK, which was the original topic of this thread, is in essence an 'outsiders' view on US gov't policy with heavy economic overtones re where US tax money is being spent versus the results actually being achieved.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-11-2006 at 02:56 AM.

  18. #18
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: The Death Bell Rings Again

    Mel, than rather than go into the Last-Word Death Spiral, I'll just say it's your section to mod and to generate the discussion that you will, regardless of my own myopic (plain language) view of the section's purpose.

    Enjoy!

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