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Thread: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    Basically, this 'settlement' with the EU countries now allows US homeland security laws to extend to any person choosing to fly into the USA from a foreign point of origin, or choosing to fly out of the USA from a domestic point of origin.

    By implication, this means that any American booking an international flight with a credit card ... or providing an e-mail address to an airline while booking the flight ... waives the right to 'probable cause', waives the right to a search warrant etc. in regard to the gov't investigating other credit card transactions they have made and other e-mails they have sent.

    This is sure going to put a damper on Cayman Island Banking !
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-01-2007 at 07:23 AM.

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    Featured Member Katherine's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    Wow. Though as of right now, US carriers are only going to be 'encouraged' to provide our information. It's only non Americans booking via credit card online that is have 30 somewhat points of information given over.

    Still really scary. Where's the right to privacy? Damn. If this really does happen ere, I'm gonna set up a special credit card for my ticket purchases along with a seperate e-mail address to use with the websites. Not that I have shit to hide- no terrorist here- but just cause the principle of this!

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    What makes you think they are not already? Sure it won't be admissible to court ... yet!

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nusnoop01.xml

    By implication, this means that any American booking an international flight with a credit card ... or providing an e-mail address to an airline while booking the flight ... waives the right to 'probable cause', waives the right to a search warrant etc. in regard to the gov't investigating other credit card transactions they have made and other e-mails they have sent.
    ~
    Actually, no, you don't 'waive your rights' to anything.

    The 4th amendment to the US Constitution does not include the clause "unless you book an international flight with a credit card or provide an e-mail address to an airline ".

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    The 4th doesn't specify a right to an airline flight either.

    This is how they are doing it folks - if you want to be a part of society or use a part of society - they just won't let you do it unless you "waive" your right.

    See "credit card companies" for the definition of court-free rights elimination.

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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    George Orwell was right folks. He was merely off by about 25 years.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    ^^^ financially or otherwise, US citizens don't have 'constitutional rights' regarding anything that they do outside of the USA ... as in international flights ! This is the same legal logic that was upheld in court re homeland security tapping international phone calls with one party being located outside the USA. I know that the same thing is true re the US gov't monitoring the offshore financial transactions of US citizens with countries that signed the terrorist anti-money laundering treaty. I suspect that the same is true for countries that did NOT sign the treaty too i.e. Cayman Islands, Andorra etc.

    The 4th doesn't specify a right to an airline flight either.

    This is how they are doing it folks - if you want to be a part of society or use a part of society - they just won't let you do it unless you "waive" your right.
    Yup, the difference between 'rights' and 'priveleges' ...

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ financially or otherwise, US citizens don't have 'constitutional rights' regarding anything that they do outside of the USA ... as in international flights !
    The U.S. Constitution spells out the powers and limits of power of the U.S.Government. Many conflate the common colloquialisms people use to understand certain parts of the document, such as 'freedom of religion', with what is actually said in the document itself, such as 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof'.

    So, actually, you are just as protected by the Constitution against the actions of the US Government (e.g., a search or seizure of effects), whether you are inside the US or not. But of course a foreign government would follow its own rules.

    The Founders understood people to have inalienable rights, absolute, not awarded by human power, not transferable to another power, and incapable of repudiation. The US Government, or the Constitution, and specifically the first ten amendments to it that we have come to know as the Bill of Rights, are not the source of these rights.

    This is the same legal logic that was upheld in court re homeland security tapping international phone calls with one party being located outside the USA.
    Umm, this is not settled law, by any means. Could you cite the court case, please? Perhaps a news article referencing the name of the case or the court ruling or something like that.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    perhaps you'll believe this since the source is PBS !

    (snip)"However, in May 2002, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ruled against the Justice Department's proposed plan for greater information sharing between intelligence officials and domestic law enforcement.

    The court argued the proposal would eliminate congressionally mandated barriers between the intelligence community and criminal prosecutors that could allow prosecutors to "advise FBI intelligence officials concerning 'the initiation, operation, continuation, or expansion of [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] searches or surveillance'" -- a change from previous procedure.

    A federal appeals court, however, overturned the ruling in November 2002, stating that the U.S. government has an expanded authority to use wiretaps and other surveillance techniques in its efforts to track suspected terrorists.

    The appeals court ruling said that expanded powers to wiretap those suspected in foreign terrorist operations -- including U.S. citizens -- outlined in the Patriot Act do not violate the Constitution."(snip)

    one of the more interesting tidbits hidden away in the 'renewed' Patriot Act is the following ...

    (snip)"Section 203: Authority to share information. Says information from grand jury investigations and wiretaps can be shared with more government officials. The information can be shared with any federal law enforcement, protective, intelligence, immigration, and national defense or security personnel, who can use the information in their official duties."(snip) <--- which includes the US Dep't of Treasury and thus the IRS. There is also a clarification at the same link that 'wiretap' authority includes data transmissions as well as phones, faxes etc., which potentially opens the door to internet credit card transactions as well as financial transfers via interbank data networks (i.e. SWIFT)

    This is of course all neatly justified via a presumption on the part of DHS that anyone flying into or out of the USA is a potential terrorist until proven otherwise, which (arguably) justifies the application of 'wiretap' authority as well as information sharing. Then the 'sneak and peek' provisions allow any incriminating info discovered by gov't snooping to also be shared with other US gov't agencies (i.e. the info can then be used as 'probable cause' to begin more direct investigations into other crimes i.e. tax evasion) even if the person being snooped on isn't a terrorist !

    The bottom line here is that Americans do have a constitutional right to exclude such gov't snooping. All they have to do is to elect not to use their 'privelege' to travel internationally via commercial air. Of course, having access to a private jet avoids the 'problem' too, without sacrificing the ability to travel internationally by air at the same time !

    And where financial information is concerned ...

    (snip)"BANKING, FINANCE, & IMMIGRATION
    Section 326: Identifying new account holders. Says the secretary of the treasury must issue rules and standards to require financial institutions to properly identify new account holders.

    Section 351: Bank Secrecy Act amendments and other changes
    -- Increases government access to information from banks if that information may be related to terrorist activities. Provides lawsuit liability to bank officers and employees who report suspicious activity.

    -- This section also amends the Fair Credit Reporting Act to allow credit reporting agencies to provide reports to law enforcement officials.

    -- It also requires financial institutions to adopt measures designed to stop money laundering.

    The secretary of the treasury can impose sanctions on companies that do not comply or refuse to give information to the government. The section also says U.S. banks can't do business with overseas "shell banks" -- those that have no physical facilities and are unregulated. It requires banks to provide information on their overseas business to the secretary of the treasury.

    Section 356: Reporting suspicious financial activity. Requires securities brokers and dealers, as well as commodity traders, to report suspicious financial activity to the secretary of the treasury."(snip)
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2007 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    ^^^ the Supreme Court did did deny the ACLU's appeal of this, it's true. However, the fight is not over. We've got a new Congress now.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    No offense, but the Democrats taught the Republicans what 41 opposition votes in the Senate can accomplish. Between the senate filibuster threat and GWB veto power, little or nothing is going to get accomplished in the next 2 years ... which the 'tin foil hat' crowd would say is probably the best possible outcome under the circumstances. But it also means that other government agencies will keep doing business as usual !

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    Senior Member HuxandKisses's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    This kind of shit is so upsetting. I hate our government, they suck.

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: new laws taking effect - keep this one in mind !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    No offense
    why would I possibly take offense at anything you had to say?

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