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Thread: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

  1. #1
    smartcookie
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    Default Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Debates on immigration are popular here in the members' section of SW. Have you ever heard this?

    Yeah, well I may be the great-great-grandchild of immigrants, but my great-great-grandparents came here legally. They weren't criminals like the &*!&^% Mexicans!

    , following . Prior to that, if you weren't Chinese, all you had to do to emigrate to the United States was show up on a boat.

    This de facto arrangement continued until was passed in 1921.

    I've also read comments like these here on SW:

    Well, at least my great great grandparents integrated, unlike the
    &*!&^% Mexicans!

    Did they really? Many didn't think so at the time. You might find some of the following images interesting.

    Here are some political cartoons from the Know Nothings. They were a party active in Boston during the 1850s. Their platform was pretty simple: down with the Irish immigrants and other Papists (aka Catholics).



    The text is hard to read, but the barge, covered with all sorts of nasty, simian-looking immigrants says "Uncle Sam's Lodging House".

    Here's another one from the 1880s:


    The more things change...

  2. #2
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Another factoid- the acronym "WOP" used to denigrate Italian immigrants came from a stamp used at Ellis Island when authorities ran out of documents to assign to the multitudinous Italians. The "WOP" stamp stood for "With Out Papers."

    I always say I never want to hear a peep about immigration unless it's from a Reservation Indian.
    Last edited by madmaxine; 01-07-2007 at 02:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Were those Irish, Italian, and Chinese immigrants undercutting wages, committing multiple violent crimes, insisting upon "reclaiming" the country as a part of their country of origin, insisting that everyone else learn to speak Irish/Italian/Mandarin/Cantonese to accomodate them, sending all their earnings home and thereby crippling our economy here, and living almost exclusively off taxpayer-funded handouts?

    It would be interesting to research that.

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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    You know, no offense but I could give a crap about 100 years ago. The laws now dictate how to legally emigrate. Follow them.



  5. #5
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    Were those Irish, Italian, and Chinese immigrants undercutting wages, committing multiple violent crimes, insisting upon "reclaiming" the country as a part of their country of origin, insisting that everyone else learn to speak Irish/Italian/Mandarin/Cantonese to accomodate them, sending all their earnings home and thereby crippling our economy here, and living almost exclusively off taxpayer-funded handouts?

    It would be interesting to research that.
    They were most certainly accused of all the above. Would you like some more reading material?

    It also seems to be a logical inconsistency to accuse immigrants of "sending all their earnings home and thereby crippling our economy here" and "living almost exclusively off taxpayer-funded handouts". It's one or the other. Not both.

    Sirona, just curious: do you also believe that the most restrictive laws pertaining to prostitution in all 50 states should be followed to the letter?

  6. #6
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    It most certainly isn't "one or the other." They're sending all their money home instead of living on it, and instead expecting taxpayers to support them. Political correctness is very nice, but I live in the reality of Los Angeles. And the reality here is that I pay over a third of my paltry income in taxes so that criminals can have unlimited free housing, free healthcare, free classes, free child support, free food, and a government that kisses their ass at the expense of enforcing the law. There is nothing you can say that will make that acceptable.

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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post
    They were most certainly accused of all the above. Would you like some more reading material?

    It also seems to be a logical inconsistency to accuse immigrants of "sending all their earnings home and thereby crippling our economy here" and "living almost exclusively off taxpayer-funded handouts". It's one or the other. Not both.

    Sirona, just curious: do you also believe that the most restrictive laws pertaining to prostitution in all 50 states should be followed to the letter?

    It would be a logical inconsistency if the illegal immigrants held legal jobs with W2s and all that reported income stuff. Since they work as handymen or Maids and have unreported incomes they can claim unemployment. Thusly they have "jobs" and are able to send their money back to Mexico and claim social assistance (housing, WIC, fod stamps, etc.) Totally logical and well practiced system.

  8. #8
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    It most certainly isn't "one or the other." They're sending all their money home instead of living on it, and instead expecting taxpayers to support them. Political correctness is very nice, but I live in the reality of Los Angeles. And the reality here is that I pay over a third of my paltry income in taxes so that criminals can have unlimited free housing, free healthcare, free classes, free child support, free food, and a government that kisses their ass at the expense of enforcing the law. There is nothing you can say that will make that acceptable.
    Right - they work 18 hour days and then in the remaining 6 they milk social welfare.

    Would you please provide links to the data that back up your claims?

    Here's an interesting report about social security contributions by undocumented workers:



    An interesting piece from Standard & Poor's:


    And Snopes on Illegal Alien Factoids:

  9. #9
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    I love when New Yorkers make a deal out of telling the rest of the country how they really live, when they have no experience whatsoever with it. As a Southerner and now a resident of Los Angeles, I get it two different ways.

    Listen, I know there are a lot of different arguments on both sides of the fence, but I'm speaking from personal experience, not NPR. The REALITY in Los Angeles is as I described - hospital emergency rooms are closing down in droves due to criminals using them for unlimited free healthcare; the police are not allowed to detain criminals due to political correctness; the social welfare system is bleeding the law-abiding in order to provide free housing, education, food stamps, and other aid, most of it to criminals; and money sent from the USA is the #1 source of Mexico's GNP, surpassing even oil and tourism.

    I pay more in taxes than I pay in rent. Over a third of what I make goes to provide a high standard of living for CRIMINALS - and I don't care what else they're doing, simply being here in violation of the law makes them criminals. I resent that, and there's really not anything you can say that would make me happy to hand that money over when I myself am poor and having to go without many of the things that money is providing for common crooks.

    Sirona made a good point; it doesn't matter what the laws were 100 years ago. Not too long ago, slavery was legal and women couldn't vote. Times change, and these are the laws we have NOW. They should be respected.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    here are some hard numbers on the costs associated with illegal aliens ...

  11. #11
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    I'm not really sure what being from New York has to do with it, Yekefah- are you implying that there are no undocumented workers here in NYC?

    Melonie, articles that rely on anecdotal evidence and hearsay with no direct links or citations of hard data from government agencies don't convince me of anything. Is something is true just because it appears in print? Yes?

    That's what a factoid is.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    ask and you shall receive ... this tidbit has extensive documentation of data sources

  13. #13
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    I wasn't saying there are no undocumented workers (aka criminals) in New York, just that the reality of the situation is different here. There's been a longstanding trend in New Yorkers telling the rest of the country what life is really like - look at all the New York abolitionists who pontificated endlessly without ever having met a slave or a Southerner - and I just think it's funny. I didn't mean to offend you, and I hope I didn't.

    Anyway, the situation in New York is not the situation in Los Angeles, and I do think that we in the southwestern border states are dealing with a completely different reality than you are. I explained that already so I won't repeat it.

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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post

    Sirona, just curious: do you also believe that the most restrictive laws pertaining to prostitution in all 50 states should be followed to the letter?
    I'll tell you what, you tell me what the fuck laws pertaining to prostitution have to do with people illegally entering the country and using resources meant for legal residents and then i'll answer your ridiculous nonsensical completely not relevant question.



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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    I love these people who always defend immigration with the line "but your grandparents, great-grandparents etc. were immigrants", as if restricting immigration is hypocritical or inherently unfair.
    Well golly gee, the immigration defenders were all born once, I guess that means if they defend abortion or the use of contraception they're a bunch of hypocrites.

  16. #16
    smartcookie
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    I hadn't anticipated such a hostile reply, Sirona - maybe it seems that I'm implying you're a prostitute? I'm not. I used the prostitution law analogy because it's one here people should readily understand. Prostitution law affects strippers, after all, and I think most of us agree that it's unjust and unfair, and don't think all strippers should be tossed into jail forthwith.

    So I find it deeply stupid when the same people scream about undocumented workers that "They're breaking the law!" and "They're criminals!" That's sheer hypocrisy.

    Yekefah, the slavery stuff is a little off-the-wall to me, and I don't really know how to respond to that. You're right, the situation with undocumented workers is different here. It's that they come from so many different places and all look so different that it's harder to point the finger at them, as they blend into an already-diverse population.

    By the way...I just moved back from California a year ago. But I'm sure my Northern abolitionist outlook blinded me to the reality you live with.

    Thank you for the link, Melonie. However, one might also draw a different lesson to be learned than Mr. Rector did. I found this gem from your Heritage Foundation:


    In other words, poor people: don't be sad because you're not really poor!

    So if poverty isn't all that bad, according to the Heritage Foundation, one might then ask: what's the problem is with more of it? Many employers are enhancing their bottom line by paying subsistence wages and no benefits to their employees, aren't they?

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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!


  18. #18
    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by smartcookie View Post
    I hadn't anticipated such a hostile reply, Sirona - maybe it seems that I'm implying you're a prostitute? I'm not. I used the prostitution law analogy because it's one here people should readily understand. Prostitution law affects strippers, after all, and I think most of us agree that it's unjust and unfair, and don't think all strippers should be tossed into jail forthwith.
    Ummmmm yea. That must be it. *rolls eyes* I'm a big fat hooker and i'm all bent out of shape because of your question.

    Prostitution law has nothing to do with immigration law. Your question was not only ridiculous it was totally and completely erroneous. Hence my response.



  19. #19
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    In other words, poor people: don't be sad because you're not really poor!
    In global terms this is absolutely true !!! The phenomenon that your Heritage Foundation author is referring to is the 'minimum acceptable American standard of living' , which is dictated by gov't via establishing social welfare benefit levels that make " a car, air conditioning, at least one color TV with cable or satellite, a 'home' in decent condition, and enough food in the refrigerator' possible without being expected to work.

    So if poverty isn't all that bad, according to the Heritage Foundation, one might then ask: what's the problem is with more of it?
    From an economic standpoint, the point is that the 'minimum acceptable American standard of living' provided to the American 'poor' is financed by the involuntary contributions of other Americans who are working their a##es off in order to pay taxes and also provide for their own families. Every additional 'poor' person who must be provided with the 'minimum acceptable American standard of living' therefore reduces the standard of living of those other Americans who are working their a##es off. Of course illegal aliens get the 'best of both worlds', since they get to collect social welfare benefits paid for by the taxes of Americans and at the same time get to save / spend / send back to Mexico their own untaxed, unreported under the table earnings.

    from a political standpoint, 'more poverty' would indeed seem to be in the interest of one political party. After all, the early US requirement that registered voters must also be landowners or otherwise actually have a 'stake' in the US economy has long since fallen by the wayside, meaning that today a politician handing out social welfare benefits to 'poor' Americans who are also registered voters can build a very 'loyal' constituency !!! Well, as long as there are still a sufficient number of middle class Americans with jobs who can pay ever higher taxes in order to finance continued social welfare benefits to those 'poor' Americans, at any rate !

    The problem with this system of course is that the high taxes are killing off middle class American jobs, thus reducing tax revenues, thus necessitating even higher taxes on the remaining middle class Americans to continue funding social welfare benefits, which forms a 'vicious circle'. The 'vicious circle' spins twice as fast when it isn't just that middle class American jobs and resulting tax revenues which is declining, but that the number of social welfare benefit recipients thus the gov't spending required to finance those benefits is increasing at the same time. A steady stream of illegal immigrants plus recent court rulings mandating that they be provided with social welfare benefits thus creates a double whammy effect.


    I love these people who always defend immigration with the line "but your grandparents, great-grandparents etc. were immigrants", as if restricting immigration is hypocritical or inherently unfair.
    yes but they were LEGAL immigrants - yes but they came to America expecting to work for whatever wages American employers were willing to pay WITHOUT receiving free medical care, free food, nor having their rent or utility bills subsidized by others - yes but they came here with the intention of learning English and 'melting' into American life rather than carving out their own 'country within a country' at the expense of Americans who were already here ...

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-11-2007 at 02:29 AM.

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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post




    yes but they were LEGAL immigrants - yes but they came to America expecting to work for whatever wages American employers were willing to pay WITHOUT receiving free medical care, free food, nor having their rent or utility bills subsidized by others - yes but they came here with the intention of learning English and 'melting' into American life rather than carving out their own 'country within a country' at the expense of Americans who were already here ...

    ~
    I love you Melonie.



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    Angry Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Okay, aside from being bitchy and generally irritated by pretty much everything "smartcookie" said-I should at least contribute something useful here. First of all, I'm rather confused by what exactly you are trying to convey here. Yes, there was discrimination against the Irish many years ago, but in what way is that relevant to what is going on today? Are you trying to say that "history repeats itself" and in 100 years we will all be aghast about our current thinking today?

    Personally, I could give two shits about what "positive benefits" illegal immigrants may have on our society. The fact remains that they broke the law and are in this country illegally and I don't think it should be our responsibility to feed/clothe/educate/house them.

    Oh, and what about the negative aspects? Is it too politically incorrect to discuss them? Oh, that's right-I need to go to the library and get some well-documented research before I state anything to the contrary (or at least post a link to a government study)..

    If you want to come here, there are legal channels with which to do so. As long as we continue to pamper people who choose to break the law, there will be no reason for people to do things legally. THAT is why we have such a huge problem with illegal immigrants. Why go the tough route when you can do it illegally and reap all the benefits that come with it?

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    Featured Member lunchbox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    yes but they were LEGAL immigrants - yes but they came to America expecting to work for whatever wages American employers were willing to pay WITHOUT receiving free medical care, free food, nor having their rent or utility bills subsidized by others -
    The legality of someone's immigration mutually exclusive of the services they use.

    yes but they came here with the intention of learning English and 'melting' into American life rather than carving out their own 'country within a country' at the expense of Americans who were already here ...
    I'm sick of hearing that. It's bullshit. Why does every major city have at least a China town? Ever heard of Little Italy? etc. etc. etc.

    Why don't you have any sense of history?

  23. #23
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    ^^^ probably because your 'history' did not exist before 1968 - 1974 !!!

    plus




    also, if you look where I located the dashes, you'll see that I was attempting to make three separate points ...

    #1 point was that past immigrants entered the country LEGALLY - as millions of would-be legal immigrants today are still waiting to do !

    #2 point was that past immigrants did not create a major financial burden for American taxpayers via disproportionate use of social welfare services, because prior to the 60's ' great society' initiatives the concept of a 'minimum acceptable US standard of living' and the 'generous' ( = expensive) social welfare benefit programs created to provide it did not exist !

    #3 point really was that prior to the US Supreme Court's Lau ruling, America HAD only one language for schools, businesses, gov't affairs etc. thus immigrants were forced to learn and use English in order to participate.

  24. #24
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    <wild applause> Go Melonie! Hear, hear!

    I'll tell y'all another reason I'm a hardass on this issue; I myself am hampered by immigration issues. I'd rather be in Australia, but unlike us, they strictly enforce their immigration law. I've BEEN on that side of the fence. It took a year just to get a student visa; my ex-husband and I had to pass extensive criminal background checks, credit checks, and prove that we had enough money and health insurance to live on so that we wouldn't be a drain on the system. Furthermore, I as a student visa holder was prohibited from working more than 20 hours a week while school was in session; I was required to attend at least 85&#37; of my classes and they checked on that regularly. If I missed too much class, I would've been deported. I also had to keep my GPA up, and they checked on that too. They made sure I kept them notified of my whereabouts; they checked up on my address and phone number. And I'm from a friendly, allied country!

    A few weeks into my last semester of grad school, I received a notice explaining how to apply for permanent residency. I was also notified that I had to either apply for permanent residency soon, or purchase a ticket home. They followed up on this a few weeks after the letter to let me know it was decision time. Had I stayed, it would've been another monumental expense and months of paperwork to get permanent residency, and then two years of permanent residency and more expense before I could apply for citizenship.

    I want nothing more than to be an Australian citizen, but I have to do it the hard and legal way. It really pisses me off when random assholes wander over the US border and demand that we bend over backwards to please them when they have NO legal right to be here. If they want to be in America, they can bloody well do it the legal way like I have to!

  25. #25
    Featured Member lunchbox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fun with Factoids: Immigration!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ probably because your 'history' did not exist before 1968 - 1974 !!!
    meh? Are you actually implying that prior to 1968 people weren't ethnically segregating themselves in this country?
    #1 point was that past immigrants entered the country LEGALLY - as millions of would-be legal immigrants today are still waiting to do !
    Yes and ....?
    #2 point was that past immigrants did not create a major financial burden for American taxpayers via disproportionate use of social welfare services, because prior to the 60's ' great society' initiatives the concept of a 'minimum acceptable US standard of living' and the 'generous' ( = expensive) social welfare benefit programs created to provide it did not exist !
    Mel, anyone who reads DD knows your opinion on social welfare has nothing to do with immigration. Why try to disguise it as such here?
    #3 point really was that prior to the US Supreme Court's Lau ruling, America HAD only one language for schools, businesses, gov't affairs etc. thus immigrants were forced to learn and use English in order to participate.
    schools - simply put every immigrant, legal or not, does not go to school, especially prior to 1968.
    businesses - For the most part, they do as they please. At no time has everyone legally employed in this country spoken English.
    gov't affairs - The burden was on the person to provide translation. I'd say this is more tied in with your issues about services than immigration.

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