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    Default raising the minimum wage part two ...


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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    Odd, Melonie, that you would choose to highlight this exemption... I thought you were opposed to raising the minimum wage?


    lol, your rabid partisanship is showing....



    But I will take this opportunity to remind the Gentle Reader to consider the source when evaluating partisan arguments such as this. The Washington Times is not a reputable or reliable source for news and information.

    The Washington Times was founded in 1982 by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, the leader of the Unification Church, better known as the Moonies.

    In 2002, during the 20th anniversary party for the Times, Rev. Moon declared: "The Washington Times will become the instrument in spreading the truth about God to the world."

    Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Times

    Here is a more in depth examination of the issue from a newspaper that is not owned and controlled by a whacko South Korean cult leader: Minimum-Wage Bill Stirs Controversy in Pacific Islands

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ my personal conclusion drawn from this news blurb is that Nancy Pelosi understands very well the negative business consequences of an increase in the minimum wage ... and for exactly that reason managed to 'exempt' the two huge tuna companies with headquarters in her own district in the fine print of the minimum wage bill ! In other words, it's OK for a minimum wage increase to hurt businesses in other parts of the country, but not for businesses headquartered in MY district ! Regardless of news source, the facts remain (I'll bite my tongue re the 'partisan' nature of the Washington Post which you cited !).

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    it seems like a pretty petty complaint to me. The wages in American Samao may be very different than in mainland US. and prior to this bill there were other exempt US territories. And San Francisco i would guess has a higher min. wage for itself than the national one.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    (I'll bite my tongue re the 'partisan' nature of the Washington Post which you cited !).
    LOL, I'll keep reminding people that the Washington Times is Sun Myung Moon's mouthpiece whenever appropriate.

    And there's no reason to bite your tongue. Please speak your mind. By all means tell us who owns the Washington Post and whether or not they've vowed to use it to spread their cult's views.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ well I suppose that depends on how one defines 'cult' ...

    "“The elephant in the newsroom is our narrowness. Too often, we wear liberalism on our sleeve and are intolerant of other lifestyles and opinions....We’re not very subtle about it at this paper: If you work here, you must be one of us. You must be liberal, progressive, a Democrat. I’ve been in communal gatherings in The Post, watching election returns, and have been flabbergasted to see my colleagues cheer unabashedly for the Democrats.”

    —Washington Post “Book World” editor Marie Arana in a September 29 contribution to the Post’s “daily in-house electronic critiques,” as quoted by Post media reporter
    Howard Kurtz in an October 3 article. [75]" from notablequotables.org


    I think that you're missing my true point here. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Frank Murkowski and a host of others were very vocal about a Republican 'culture of corruption' , with a major focal point being accusations towards former Rep. Tom Delay over the Marianas being exempted from minimum wage laws ...

    (snip)"But as chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Frank Murkowski became furious at the abusive sweatshop conditions endured by workers, overwhelmingly immigrants, in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands, of which Saipan is the capital.

    Because they were produced in a territory of the United States, garments traveled tariff-free and quota-free to the profitable U.S. market and were entitled to display the coveted "Made in the USA" label.

    Among the manufacturers that had profited from the un-free labor market on the island were Tommy Hilfiger USA, Gap, Calvin Klein and Liz Claiborne.

    Moved by the sworn testimony of U.S. officials and human-rights advocates that the 91 percent of the workforce who were immigrants -- from China, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh -- were being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed, Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.

    So compelling was the case for change the Alaska Republican marshaled that in early 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Murkowski worker reform bill.

    But one man primarily stopped the U.S. House from even considering that worker-reform bill: then-House Republican Whip Tom DeLay.

    According to law firm records recently made public, lobbyist Jack Abramoff, paid millions to stop reform and keep the status quo, met personally at least two dozen times with DeLay on the subject in one two-year period. The DeLay staff was often in daily contact with Abramoff.

    DeLay traveled with his family and staff over New Year's of 1997 on an Abramoff scholarship endowed by his client, the government of the territory, to the Marianas, where golf and snorkeling were enjoyed.

    DeLay fully approved of the working and living conditions. The Texan's salute to the owners and Abramoff's government clients was recorded by ABC-TV News: "You are a shining light for what is happening to the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we are trying to do in America and leading the world in the free-market system"

    Later, DeLay would tell The Washington Post's Juliet Eilperin that the low-wage, anti-union conditions of the Marianas constituted "a perfect petri dish of capitalism. It's like my Galapagos Island."

    Contrast that with what then-Sen. Murkowski told me in a 1998 interview: "The last time we heard a justification that economic advances would be jeopardized if workers were treated properly was shortly before Appomattox."

    The "Made in the USA" label means standards of quality and standards of conduct.

    But more important than how a product is made is how the people who make that product are treated -- as human beings with innate dignity -- who are free to organize and entitled to a living wage.

    Did somebody say something about moral values?"(snip) from


    Thus the hypocracy of enacting federal minimum wage laws to cover the Marianas as an issue of moral values and human dignity which were formerly trampled on by Rep Tom DeLay, while Nancy Pelosi is now exempting American Samoa from those same federal minimum wage laws to benefit corporations headquartered in her district, is far from being petty ! IMHO minimum wage laws have extremely little to do with genuine concern for 'poor' Americans, and a whole lot to do with partisan politics. The Marianas minimum wage exemption was 'serious' enough to get Tom Delay indibted and Jack Abramoff convicted, whereas Nancy Pelosi barely gets a mention in mainstream media for essentially doing the exact same thing to benefit her own constituents by exempting American Samoa.


    The wages in American Samao may be very different than in mainland US. and prior to this bill there were other exempt US territories.
    in a way, you are reinforcing my basic point re minimum wage i.e. there are many situations where enforcing a $7.25 an hour pay rate is disproportionate to regional economics and is harmful to employers attempting to compete with offshore corporations who have vastly lower labor costs. However, why should this very valid economic point about the relevance of minimum wage laws apply to American Samoa and not also apply to say Texas or Mississippi or the Marianas ? Why should Pelosi's consitituent Del Monte Corp. be 'saved' from economic ruin as a result of a mandatory increase in the minimum wage when countless other US companies won't be similarly 'saved' ?

    from

    (snip)"These are good points that cast the situation in a different light. But is American Samoa the only jurisdiction where a $7.25 minimum wage would cause hardship to an industry? What about the islands of the Northern Marinas and its low-wage clothing workers, about whom PBS and Pelosi's fellow Bay area respresentative George Miller tried to raise a stink when Jack Abramoff lobbied to keep wages low?

    My view is that in a free market economy employers in all industries should have the right to set their wages and, in all events, minimum wage laws should not extend outside the 50 states. But if you have a minimum wage, and special exemptions are carved out by Congress, then you're immediately thrust into "the culture of corruption" as industries lobby powerful members of Congress to obtain, or in this case retain, exemptions."


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-12-2007 at 11:49 PM.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ well I suppose that depends on how one defines 'cult' ...
    What is the meaning of the word cult? Let's just as a matter of course use the generally accepting meaning of words, and skip the special or metaphorical definitions that we might be tempted to invent to score rhetorical points. So just look up the word cult in Merriam-Webster or any other reputable dictionary to see how it is defined.

    Are you trying to imply that Reverend Moon's Unification Church is not a cult? I wouldn't mind debating that topic with you.

    Or are you trying to imply that the Washington Post is also, like the Washington Times, owned by the leader of a foreign cult, who has publically stated that the paper is to be used to spread that cults beliefs? I wouldn't mind debating that either, if you'd like to make that point.

    So basically I seem to have missed your point about the Washington Post: what is it? I could make guesses and respond to those, but I don't want to state your case for you, I want to respond to what you are actually saying. So what is it that you are saying about the Washington Post and its reliability as a source of information compared to the Moonie-owned Washington Times?

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    So what is it that you are saying about the Washington Post and its reliability as a source of information compared to the Moonie-owned Washington Times?
    ... that, at a minimum, neither can be considered a totally objective news source !
    ... that both select particular news content, reject other news content, and follow editorial policy which is intended to advance the beliefs of the 'cult' they actively support
    ... that in the case of the Post, the 'cult' beliefs being advanced have affected the decisions of far more Americans than the Washington Times ever could - as proven by last november's election results.

    if you're looking for a straightforward 'cult' definition for the Post, you might read , which does in fact compare the role of 'cult' leaders ...

    (snip)"By embracing phony prophets, liberals strip away any honesty and credibility they may have once had with the public. Unlike Christians [or the Rev Moon - sic], liberals can't shield themselves from criticism by referring to their most outspoken nuts as just a small group of fringe leaders. On the contrary, their leaders are writing curriculum for public schools, cloning obnoxious "apple-polishers" at colleges and universities and intimidating small towns with baseless lawsuits."(snip)

    back on topic, it is certainly arguable that one of the core beliefs of the cult of liberalism is that all Americans are entitled to a 'minimum acceptable standard of living' , made possible in part by a minimum wage / living wage, based on the principle of 'human dignity' alone, and without regard for the actual world market value of labor or the effects of higher labor costs on the profitability / viability of US employers vs foreign competition with lower labor costs. Thus if Nancy Pelosi had stuck to this core belief of the cult of liberalism and had proposed raising the federal minimum wage across the board, as was publicized by mainstream media to be the case, then at least she would have been consistent.

    However, including an exemption for American Samoa in the fine print of the increased minimum wage bill, an exemption whose primary beneficiaries are large corporations with headquarters located in Nancy Pelosi's district, clearly betrays this core belief, brings the 'human dignity' of American Samoans into question, and thus puts Nancy Pelosi in exactly the same position re 'culture of corruption' / political favors that Pelosi and others in politics and media felt were sufficient grounds to attack and destroy Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff re different US corporations 'exploiting' sub-minimum wage labor in the Marianas instead of American Samoa !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-13-2007 at 07:25 AM.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... that, at a minimum, neither can be considered a totally objective news source !
    ... that both select particular news content, reject other news content, and follow editorial policy which is intended to advance the beliefs of the 'cult' they actively support
    ~
    could you please at least attempt to cite something that supports your view, which is totally without basis in fact?

    Like for instance , I have shown that it is a fact that the Washington Times is in fact owned by a cult, the Unification Church. You are continuing to pretend that there is some type of equivalent cult connected with the Washington Post. Let's hear some facts about that cult. Or perhaps some evidence of bias at the Post beyond your unsupported assertions.

    Of course, no human being is without bias, but you are not talking about incidental bias, you are claiming a pervasive bias, you are claiming some sort equivalency between the Moonie-owned Times and the Post. Let's see something that supports this - please.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    However, including an exemption for American Samoa in the fine print of the increased minimum wage bill
    ~

    The problem with this statement, is that it is not true. No such 'exemption' for American Samoa appears in the bill.

    Here is the text of the bill:

    H. R. 2

    AN ACT

    To amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to provide for an increase in the Federal minimum wage.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the `Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007'.

    SEC. 2. MINIMUM WAGE.

    (a) In General- Section 6(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 206(a)(1)) is amended to read as follows:

    `(1) except as otherwise provided in this section, not less than--

    `(A) $5.85 an hour, beginning on the 60th day after the date of enactment of the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007;

    `(B) $6.55 an hour, beginning 12 months after that 60th day; and

    `(C) $7.25 an hour, beginning 24 months after that 60th day;'.

    (b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect 60 days after the date of enactment of this Act.

    SEC. 3. APPLICABILITY OF MINIMUM WAGE TO THE COMMONWEALTH OF THE NORTHERN MARIANA ISLANDS.

    (a) In General- Section 6 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 206) shall apply to the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.

    (b) Transition- Notwithstanding subsection (a), the minimum wage applicable to the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands under section 6(a)(1) of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 206(a)(1)) shall be--

    (1) $3.55 an hour, beginning on the 60th day after the date of enactment of this Act; and

    (2) increased by $0.50 an hour (or such lesser amount as may be necessary to equal the minimum wage under section 6(a)(1) of such Act), beginning 6 months after the date of enactment of this Act and every 6 months thereafter until the minimum wage applicable to the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands under this subsection is equal to the minimum wage set forth in such section.

    http://thomas.loc.gov

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ sure it does ... by omission !!!

    Obviously a specific effort was made to amend the same sort of separate FLSA regulations which previously existed for the Marianas to remove the sub-minimum wage provisions that Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff had attempted to continue. Are you seriously trying to make the case that Nancy Pelosi et all were completely aware of sub-minimum wage provisions covering the Marianas but NOT also aware of analogous sub-minimum wage provisions covering American Samoa within the FLSA ???


    On your latest request for 'proof', this is difficult to offer without an expected response from you that the sources testifying to the existance of media bias are themselves biased (although I kind of expected that the quote I posted from the Washington Post's own book editor Maria Arana re her actual observations of fellow Post employees and Post editorial policies would suffice) ... but perhaps will suffice instead. This references a scientific experiment conducted by Yale university, which concluded ...

    (snip)"The Washington DC area is served by two major newspapers, the Washington
    Times and the Washington Post. We randomly assigned individuals either to receive a
    free subscription to the Washington Post, to receive a free subscription to the Washington
    Times, or to a control group. We then conducted a public opinion survey after the 2005
    Virginia gubernatorial election. We find that those assigned to the Post treatment group
    were eight percentage points more likely to vote for the Democratic candidate for
    governor than those assigned to the control group. We find similar but weaker evidence
    of shifts in public opinion on specific issues and attitudes."(snip)

    (let me guess ... the Yale study is biased because GWB is a Yale alumnus ?)


    At any rate, all of your red herring counterpoints about lack of media objectivity have nothing to do with the fact that Nancy Pelosi et al have indeed allowed an exemption to the minimum wage law to stand for American Samoa, while at the same time an exemption for the Marianas has been specifically eliminated. I would have gladly linked a Post story instead of a Times story - however for 'some reason or another' the Post didn't feel the need to write one until today !!!

    I also assume it is an unarguable fact that sub-minimum wage corporate interests in the Marianas were the focus of Tom DeLay and Jack Abramoff i.e. Republicans (as documented in court transcripts), and also that the sub-minimum wage corporate interests in American Samoa both happen to be headquartered in Democrat Nancy Pelosi's district. You have yet to comment on my original point !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-13-2007 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    I see - it's there, because it isn't there?

    The fact is, as I have demonstrated, to say there is an exemption for American Samoa in HR 2 is simply not true. There is no such exemption in the bill.

    Now, to say that American Samoa has already been exempt from those laws for some time, including for 12 years under a Republican majority - that would be true.

    The bottom line is, Republicans are opposed to the minimum wage, and now that the Democrats are in charge and it's passing, they are suddenly feigning concern for - American Samoa!! It's laughable really that they think they are going to win votes this way.
    Last edited by dlabtot; 01-13-2007 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ it's there because the exemption for American Samoa was already a part of the FLSA, just as the Marianas exemption was. Nancy Pelosi et al made a specific effort in the new minimum wage law to remove the pre-existing sub-minimum exemption for the Marianas, yet made no similar effort to remove a similar sub-minimum wage exemption for American Samoa.

    Actually, by logical analysis, financial conservatives would be happy to see exemptions to minimum wage laws wherever they still exist.

    The whole point of this thread has been that, while ostensibly promoting the necessity of an increase in the minimum wage on the basis of 'human dignity' and an entitlement to a 'minimum acceptable American standard of living', and after villifying Tom Delay's and Jack Abramoff's efforts to retain the sub-minimum wage exemption in the Marianas to the point of having charges brought against them, that Nancy Pelosi has now chosen to retain the sub-minimum wage exemption for American Samoa which 'coincidentally' benefits two major corporations that are headquartered in her district !


    I'll reiterate my previous contention that increasing the minimum wage has extremely little to do with genuine concern for the well-being of 'poor' Americans, and a whole lot to do with partisan politics. If you're going to ask for proof of that contention, allow me to offer this year's MRC's Award winner for biased media reporting ... the US News and World Report's blatantly biased pre-election headline
    "Vote Democratic , Earn More" ! from

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    LOL, yeah it's all about smearing Pelosi, and the fact that it is based on a lie doesn't matter....

    but the petty vindictiveness of the Republicans really won't matter nearly as much as the reality of the minimum wage hike. Score one for the Democrats.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ time will tell whether or not the minimum wage increase will wind up being a Phyrric Victory.

    Besides, it's not yet a done deal because some Senate Democrats have realized that they need to include some sort of tax relief or other business tax incentives to buffer the obviously negative effects of a minimum wage increase on American businesses. Hmmm, Democrats cutting taxes on businesses ???

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    ^^^ yup, here it comes ! Apparently Democrats in the Senate have realized the potentially devastating negative effects of a minimum wage increase on small businesses, and have proposed an additional 8 billion dollars worth of new business tax cuts / credits / deductions to help offset the damage. This sets the scene for a major battle between House and Senate Democrats over proposing something that cuts taxes on businesses ...




    Also, based on the Democrat's 'PayGo' principle, in order to justify this small business tax reduction either 8 billion dollars worth of discretionary spending will have to be cut elsewhere (yeah, right !), or 8 billion dollars of new tax revenue will have to be collected from other taxpayers !!! Thus the minimum wage increase may have even more unintended consequences i.e. people earning $50k plus per year having their income taxes increased as a direct result of the minimum wage increase law !!! The 'tin foil hat crowd' is speculating that GWB and Republicans are standing aside or going along with the minimum wage increase for the express purpose of forcing the Democrats to explain to higher earning taxpayers why their income taxes were increased by 8 billion dollars in order to cut taxes on businesses as part of the minimum wage increase when the next election rolls around.

    Ultimately, 'you can't get something for nothing'. A gov't mandate requiring that low skill employees must be paid more money for the same amount of work / added value has to be paid for by extracting that money from somewhere else. The Senate Democrats have come to the conclusion that the money cannot just be extracted from the businesses that employ minimum wage workers without doing substantial damage to the profitability / viability of those businesses. Thus the next decision will be where that 'somewhere else' will be ... a reduction in social welfare programs ? a reduction in education spending ? a reduction in military spending ? or a good ol fashioned tax increase on middle class Americans ?


    The adventure continues ...

    !
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-18-2007 at 04:36 AM.

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    Default Re: raising the minimum wage part two ...

    well what do you know, Senate Democrats just shot down the minimum wage bill because it didn't provide a matching tax break for small business ...



    (snip)"Minimum wage bill faces tax break additions after vote to end debate fails

    CAPITOL HILL (AP) — The minimum wage bill has run aground for now.

    By a 54-to-43 vote, the Senate has rejected efforts to advance the legislation. Two weeks ago, the House passed the measure which would raise the minimum wage from $5.15 an hour to $7.25. Opponents say the increase must be accompanied by new tax breaks for restaurants and other businesses that rely on low-paid workers.

    The vote sends a message to House Democrats and liberals in the Senate that only a hybrid tax-and-minimum-wage package will succeed in the Senate."(snip)

    ~

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