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Thread: Role Reversal....

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    Default Role Reversal....

    Hi All - this is my first post - but I've been lurking for the last few days. I'm a straight female, and I have been visitng a male strip club near me on and off for several years. The clubs main clientele are gay males, the dancers are usually straight males, and women are barely tolerated. I guess I sort of occupy a different role there, as I've been coming out for so long, I don't cause trouble, and I'm friends, some strictly ITC, others OTC, with dancers, management, bartenders, DJ, customers, etc. Basically, this place is my element and it's where i feel comfortable coming for a drink alone. I tip on stage, primarily - but they are tokens - i've done VIPs and I've gotten lapdances over the years, but I keep a low-profile for the most part. I think Management prefers it that way. Also, being a female, with the dancers it tends to be more traditional - in that they don't expect to get money from the women there, altho they expect to get other things *lol* if they can talk 'em into it.

    anyways - i've sorta developed something with a dancer OTC. There's never been a financial aspect to our thing, and i realize he is there to work, and that he's prolly got all sorts of stalkers and whatnot, so i do my best to respect his boundaries.

    here's the thing - i'm trying to understand where my dancer friend is coming from - since

    a. i'm a civilian
    b. i tend to operate at a different level from most people to begin with, so I can be clueless
    c. i'd liek to be as respectful of him as he is of me, and would hate to inadvertantly hurt his feelings. (part of me being clueless, i think)

    so here's what I'd liek advice on -

    first - it seems the more involved we get, the more our guards come up with each other. It was easier to talk to him, and be open with him, years ago, or hell even last year, when we were casual SC friends. Now that things have gotten deeper, i feel that his guard is up, and my guard is up, and really there's nothing to be said, and it's best to just kiss and not try talking.

    But eventually things are gonna need to be said, and i hate feeling uncomfortable. In reading through other threads, it seems that keeping your guard up is a part of the gig. but how do I help him to feel safe with me? I'm not gonna judge one way or the other, and i'm not gonna turn into his psychotic stalker, and i'm not gonna try to take his money, and i would hope after all this time he would know that about me, but I don't know how to communicate it so it's said, without insulting him. heh.

    The other thing is this: he's got this thing for telling me how much he feels i'm worth in $$$s. it's meant to be a compliment, and it's always a respectable number, and I take it as such. But I wonder if there's always a mental $s in/$s out tally going on with him, and if that's also a side effect of the gig. I suppose as long as i'm on the right side of the tally it's all good.

    So basically - I need someone who is in his shoes to tell me how I can make him feel more secure and comfortable with whatever our thing is. turn feel more secure and comfortable myself. (because I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, and if it was any civilian guy, i prolly wouldn't feel this way - i'd take his actions at face value)

    Thanks for your help!

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    You aint kidding with the role reversal comment.

    Honestly, you need to forget he's a dancer. I think the insecurity is mutual.

    Just sit him down and tell him that you don't like feeling that his job has an affect on how you feel for him. And with all the commentary and such, you feel he's making it out to.

    Guards will go up as you get to know someone, the process may take 10 days or 10 years, but as you get to know someone, their natural defenses come up. It's who we are. You need to address them directly, if for no other reason than to let him know there is a defense up and you're TRYING to get through it.

    Relationships of all shapes and sizes take work. It's just people forget that work can be a LOT of fun. At every stage there appears to be an uneven plane, but really all it needs (like your situation) is balancing out.

    Step back and look at it objectively. Subjectively, it seems hopeless. Objectively, people get through it everyday.

    "Sure you have your guard up", he said sitting back in his recliner.
    "We all do during the process. The defense is part of who we are, and it protects us even when it seems completely wrong. It's who YOU are, and it's who YOU want him to know"
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    hey thanks Mastridonicus -

    yeah it's a role reversal bigtime - that club's whole dynamic is fascinating to me. I guess that's why i keep going back. it's a curious study in human behavior. some of the threads i've read here on club dynamics come close, but this one's got a whole other level to it too.


    anyways yeah - how do you figure the insecurity is mutual? Like why? I know why I feel insecure (that's pretty obvious) but why would he?

    and you're right - relationships do take work - now i've just gotta find my balls and figure out a way to breach the barrier without coming on too strong. I have no idea how to do that tho. *lol* i'm so much more comfortable with just letting things go the way they will go.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaJones View Post
    hey thanks Mastridonicus -

    anyways yeah - how do you figure the insecurity is mutual? Like why? I know why I feel insecure (that's pretty obvious) but why would he?

    i'm so much more comfortable with just letting things go the way they will go.
    Why would he? Well if you're feeling insecure, you tell me, why WOULDN'T he feel it as well? It's simple equivalence really, don't mistake lack of evidence for lack of insecurity. I guarantee he's racking his brain trying to understand why you're acting this way. Or at least thinking about it.

    More important is the second part.

    Bring it up when it's right. Don't force it. When he makes a comment, eventually it will make you feel uncomfortable enough to say something, then and only then will it be right. It's the natural flow of things. To quote FMA "The world is the all, and We are the one."

    The world turns at an axis, doing the best it can. So should you
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    heh. i shall sell no whine before it's time. :p

    anyways - i think i understand what you're saying about insecurity. it's that whole push/pull thing in human interaction. Nature loves balance...

    it's just hard for me to even understand his persepctive, which is why i guess i'm here in the first place.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    The club I work at is both male and female entertainers. I've been with a fellow male dancer for 4 years now and we have a beautiful daughter together. When I first started working there I was a waitress and he had been dancing there for about 3 years at that time. I used to have to wait on his shows, and before we started dating it was easy for me to watch him etc...But once we started dating and getting more emotionally attached to one another it was very hard for me to watch these women all over him. Although I know it's a job, I'd still get insanely jealous and sad to say, flip out on him some nights. Then I became a dancer and I didn't have to see that anymore. However, I still to this day find it very hard to watch him still. So I respect his space by not being around. I mean is this the problem you're having? Not being able to handle all the attention he gets? I mean if it gets to that point I'd suggest keeping yourself busy by talking to the peeps you know or just avoiding the place altogether. But really try not to get jealous about his job because that's all it is..a job.(I still have to remind myself of that sometimes!)

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    You know it's funny - I've found with a lot of the other dancers at his place, they tend to date dancers themselves, because it's easier than dealing with "regular" women I guess.

    And no - at this point at least - I don't get jealous at all, but there'snot a lot of women in there. And the women that are there - tend to be in for a lark, dancers themselves, or women he wouldn't deal with, as far as I know. I can't imagine if it was a primarily female audience tho - i wouldn't be able to handle that. Chicks are freakin' grabby, man. So many of them have no concept of boundaries. and the bitches won't tip. *lol*

    I think the issue i'm having is this - altho he's never given me a reason to think he's not straight up in his interest in me, I don't trust the situation enough to believe that we can have a truly grounded relationship. Unless we had a wide open line of communication - which at this point we don't.

    I guess - i wonder - in my more paranoid moments - how much of what he does and says is stripper shit - but it's not like he's asking me for money, so then why would it be? i suppose it could be for sex, but damn he's a sex symbol - he can get sex wherever - so what's the con, you know what I mean? and that's the insecurity that puts my guard up.


    Edit - on the jealousy thing again - as I said, it would prolly be different if it was a female clientele, but i've actually found i'm more turned on by the idea of him dancing as we've gotten closer.
    Last edited by ChinaJones; 01-19-2007 at 03:10 PM. Reason: had another thought

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    Your relationship is tied in with the fact he is a dancer. That's what he does, it's how you met, it turns you on, and it also fuels your insecurity--as well as his, possibly, believe it or not.

    A truly confident person will remain relatively unaffected by a lot of attention, delivered in a superficial environment. It can boost confidence and improve the self-image, but won't affect the core personality.

    Dancing will affect an insecure person in many ways, including the assignation of monetary value to people and their sexual desirability. It can also give a person who is at root insecure a false sense of security, which is quite dangerous.

    People who crave attention and start getting a lot of it learn to need more and more attention to feel confident. Then when they don't get it, or get less than they need, they can often feel worse than before--until they find a source of new attention. No matter how superficial, contrived or meaningless it might be, this superficial attention can become addictive, and start to warp people.

    I don't know if the guy is as bad as this, but I have seen it many, many times amongst the dancers I have worked with over the years. The truly confident women don't let it get to them, but the really insecure ones can actually become less secure over time.

    The key is to get real. Easier said than done...

    Sometimes, ironically enough, this is a lot easier if both people are in the business. The last thing they want to do then, hopefully, is either hear or deliver useless flattery to each other, after hearing it ad nauseum at work.

    Avoid meaningless flattery. Tell him to stop telling you how much you are worth--you're supposed to be priceless to the one who loves you. Similiarly, telling him how hot he is might not mean all that much to him if he hears it all night, and if he's insecure it will mean even less, really.

    Maybe try telling him what you like about him as a person, entirely independent of his physical appeal. Maybe he will reciprocate, which you might find to be a pleasant experience
    Last edited by Djoser; 01-20-2007 at 03:43 AM. Reason: ridiculous spelling and punctuation errors, it was a busy night at work, what can I say, lol?
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    wow - Djoser - you broke it down.

    That pretty much sums up the situation. I know him as a dancer - if i had met him outside and things went how they've gone I would be less wary of all of it.

    the stuff you say about insecurity makes sense too. I tend not to deliver the useless flattery - that's just never been my style. If i see the work in the gym, i'll comment, but that's par for the course - i used to work in a gym, and i hang out with a lot of bodybuilders and really that's how i wound up at this club in the first place - one of my gym regulars danced there - still does. So anyways, yeah - i try not to overtly sexualize anyone. And I guess that's how i become the agony aunt for some of the dancers. I give them a chance to just be real for a few minutes before getting there head back in the game.

    anyways all that's neither here nor there - you have a good suggestion as regards to telling him what it is I really like about him - and honestly those are the things I like best about him - his honesty (it can be brutal soemtimes) his directness, and his respect for my boundaries, manners, and consideration for me. in a wierd way - altho i don't trust that he's a dancer, I trust and feel secure with him as a person. which i guess is the root of my confusion. it's the context, and not necessarily the person.

    As Mastridonicus (sp?) said, i need to forget that he's a dancer. But I guess I can't do that, if he's assigning $ amounts. *lol* I'll have to figure out a way to finesse making him stop that.

    Back to the insecurity thing - i know what you're saying because I see it with some of the guys - some are Strippers with a capital S (fulfilling the stereotypes) - he's not that guy, but he's been dancing for a few years now - so I'm sure it's taken it's toll - is there any way I can help him with that, or is that one of those things that's not my work to do?

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    If he wants your help, probably. If he can forget he is a dancer, you might be able to overcome the obstacles of the context, as you say, and then really get to know the person in a new and better way, and have a chance to forget it yourself to some degree, and help him grow or recover from any negative effects. If he won't let you forget it, not much chance...

    I know that I have tried to get a few of the insecure female dancers I have worked with to open their eyes and see what was going on, but if they arent ready to do that, there's not much point in trying. But if as you say he's not of that breed you would have a much better chance.

    Just be wary of trying to help someone who isn't ready, regardless of their security level.

    Have you considered stripping yourself? It might not help, but it probably wouldnt hurt. If it isn't your thing, I wouldnt force it, of course.

    As far as assigning monetary value, maybe tell him you appreciate that he is trying to compliment you, but you would like it better if he found a different way.

    I love your comment about it being the context, not necessarily the person--now that really sums it up...

    Unfortunately, it's a context that cannot easily be set aside, and can sometimes make it tough to sustain a real relationship.

    Moments later--oh, and forgive me, I didn't mean to accuse you of delivering up meaningless flattery--the problem sometimes can be, though, that they are hearing the same thing they hear all night from a zillion people (who might not always be insincere, either, lol). So it loses some of its value, and winds up (with some people) being the same thing as meaningless flattery. But whatever, I'm not there and have no idea how you compliment him or how often.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    oh hell no - there is no way I could ever dance. I would be the brokest dancer ever -

    1. I don't have the people skills to pretend interest in people I don't find interesting - i can handle customer service - but i'm more of a reservation taker than a cold-caller - if you know what I mean.

    2. I don't have the body confidence I would need to put myself on show. I know my assets, but I know my flaws too, and that would show.

    the money sounds great - but I'm definitely a behind-the-scenes personality.

    as for the issue of compliments - i think perhaps I don't compliment him near enough - and perhaps that's why he digs me. I don't think he has any idea actually where he stands with me - part of the communication breakdown. But in my mind, i'm showing him how I feel by submitting to his attention, and I don't submit to just any one. But then again, how would he know that? It just dawned on me that perhaps that's part of him having his guard up too.

    seems like if there's any hope of something deep and healthy to come of all this, I might need to let myself be vulnerable and real, so that he feels comfortable being vulnerable and real. And from there guage whether this thing is doable for both of us. hee hee - easier said then done, but i'll see what i can do.

    you know something else just dawned on me - considering he prolly doesn't know where he stands with me - i wonder if the money talk is his way of guaging whether he's just a trick to me - that would be really subtle, and perhaps now i've moved into overthinking things. But i think the best way to start sorting this stuff out, is to let him know that I don't consider him a trick, so he needs to stop slapping a price-tag on me.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinaJones View Post
    ...so he needs to stop slapping a price-tag on me.
    Maybe you could make a joke out of it, and say it almost like you have here. Sometimes humor can be the most effective way.

    Or if you think the guy is really falling for you, you could try the old hand on his heart, eyes gazing right into his closeup thing, and say "No amount of money can buy this..." meaning you, but maybe him, and definitely what you have that's real between you.

    Repeat as needed, or also both in combination.

    I'd definitly continue refraining from complimenting him much, if you think it's not taken to heart. There are other, non-verbal ways to tell someone they get you going, lol--but you already know that I'll bet.

    I think I have said enough, it is the height of folly (or maybe delusion) to think you can closely advise anyone when you haven't seen them interact with their lover.

    So you have to keep us posted, OK? If you feel so inclined. I'll be curious to see how it turns out now.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    *lol* - i bet he'd see right through the "no amount of money can buy this" thing! I'm sure he's had to pull that one out of the bag at some point.

    but I know what you're saying. just to be re-assuring.

    Thanks for all the advice - i'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on. And i'll definitely give an update if and when there's something to update. I'm taking this real slow, and low-key - partly because i don't want to wind up neck-deep in some drama i'll regret, and also so I don't spook him into thinking i want something he can't handle.

    kid gloves, basically.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Or if you think the guy is really falling for you, you could try the old hand on his heart, eyes gazing right into his closeup thing, and say "No amount of money can buy this..." meaning you, but maybe him, and definitely what you have that's real between you.
    And so goes the internal female eye roll. lol.

    Maybe that would sound different coming out of a woman towards a man, I don't know. I think the straightforward approach is better, but you have to realize that your fantasy could get ruined by it. Do you really want to know if he feels the same way, or do you want to continue the excitement of going there and seeing him? You probably won't be able to have both.
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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    well to be honest - i don't go there to see him, exactly (well maybe a little since things got hectic between us) - I go there because I love the place, and if he and I stopped what we're doing tomorrow, I'd still go there - no harm no foul.

    but as far as my fantasy getting ruined - yeah - that's a definite possibility - the idea of a truly committed relationship (with any guy, not just him) kinda makes me feel claustrophobic at this point in my life. Without going into all my baggage, let's just say I'm enjoying my independence right now.

    i like the freedom i've got with him at the moment, but I feel like I need some more grounding, i guess. I want something solid, but not suffocating, if that makes sense. And i don't see that coming about as long as we're tiptoeing around each other and operating on assumptions and ignoring open communication.

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    Default Re: Role Reversal....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    And so goes the internal female eye roll. lol.
    I don't get it. The way I would do it, it would be as straightforward as you can get.

    This is the second time you have confused me with a bullshitter, it seems. I realize they abound in this business, of course, and can be found in this site on occasion.

    This sort of thing has never, ever failed me--but then I have only used it when dealing with someone with heart and substance, or to correct those who don't realize who they are dealing with, and can be enlightened.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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