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Thread: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    "Nuking The Economy
    Immigration Numbers Outnumber US Job Growth By 7,000,000
    By Paul Craig Roberts
    1-27-7

    Last week the Bureau of Labor Statistics re-benchmarked the payroll jobs data back to 2000. Thanks to Charles McMillion of MBG Information Services, I have the adjusted data from January 2001 through January 2006. If you are worried about terrorists, you don't know what worry is.

    Job growth over the last five years is the weakest on record. The US economy came up more than 7 million jobs short of keeping up with population growth. That's one good reason for controlling immigration. An economy that cannot keep up with population growth should not be boosting population with heavy rates of legal and illegal immigration."(snip)

    (snip)"Economists who look beyond political press releases estimate the US unemployment rate to be between 7% and 8.5%. There are now hundreds of thousands of Americans who will never recover their investment in their university education.

    Unless the BLS is falsifying the data or businesses are reporting the opposite of the facts, the US is experiencing a job depression. Most economists refuse to acknowledge the facts, because they endorsed globalization. It was a win-win situation, they said.


    They were wrong.

    At a time when America desperately needs the voices of educated people as a counterweight to the disinformation that emanates from the Bush administration and its supporters, economists have discredited themselves. This is especially true for "free market economists" who foolishly assumed that international labor arbitrage was an example of free trade that was benefitting Americans. Where is the benefit when employment in US export industries and import- competitive industries is shrinking? After decades of struggle to regain credibility, free market economics is on the verge of another wipeout.

    No sane economist can possibly maintain that a deplorable record of merely 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs over five years is an indication of a healthy economy. The total number of private sector jobs created over the five year period is 500,000 jobs less than one year's legal and illegal immigration! (In a December 2005 Center for Immigration Studies report based on the Census Bureau's March 2005 Current Population Survey, Steven Camarota writes that there were 7,9 million new immigrants between January 2000 and March 2005.)"(snip)


    If you believe the "structural unemployment" guesstimates are accurate at levels of 7-8.5% of the 'working age' US population, then you're talking about somewhere around 14 million Americans who are depending on the US gov't (i.e. US taxpayers) for maintaining their standard of living. At the same time, you're talking about another 7 million illegal immigrants who are either working under the table or are also dependent on the US gov't (i.e. US taxpayers), or some combination of the two. Given a total official US population of 300 million, this means that something like 1 in 12 people in America are leeches on the US economy in terms of national averages. In specific states which have concentrations of 'structurally unemployed' and illegal aliens i.e. California, Illinois, New York etc. the leech factor is undoubtedly considerably higher !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-28-2007 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    In terms of globalization, there is no stopping it, whether you are for or against it. The internet and related technology being what it is has completely leveled the playing field. Americans can no longer sit on their asses and figure that they'll be OK in their profession just b/c they are Americans (thinking along the lines that America alone will solidify your chances at becoming successful, or financially secure). They need to not only work hard for their success, but they need to innovate, get creative. American business needs to invest in more R&D, and hopefully as more and more jobs go elsewhere, the R&D (and whatever innovation that may bring) will bring new jobs back to the states.

    In terms of immigration vs new job creation, as everything stands now....the situation is completely out of control and that is why I think something needs to be done about to attempt to clean up the mess. It so hard to accurately count illegal immigrants, but I do believe they are having a negative impact on the American economy on several different levels. Jobs, taxation (or lack thereof), stolen identities, social impacts (free education for the children who are inevitably born here, free healthcare {since many public hospitals can not turn people away}, welfare, etc). I can't even really wrap my head around all of it.....It's so overwhelming when you think of every little thing.






    (just click to donate FREE food to those in need...REALLY!)

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    well, the 'tin foil hat' crowd would argue that one major reason that the unknown millions of illegal immigrants are here and working under the table is that the 12 million Americans who are "structurally unemployed' have no incentive to work at minimum or sub-minimum wage jobs which would actually reduce their standard of living - by jeopardizing their continued eligibility for medicaid, TANF, subsidized housing, subsidized utilities, and a variety of other social welfare programs that their own paychecks could never manage to pay for !

    I agree there is no stopping the effects of globalization. However, one of those effects is to equalize the standard of living between unskilled workers in America and unskilled workers in China, India, Vietnam, Mexico etc. As this will never happen as a result of a deliberate effort, it will eventually have to happen via economic catastrophe instead ! If there is any bright side, after this happens Mexicans will no longer have any incentive to illegally immigrate to the USA, since the future standard of living for poor Americans won't be too much different than that which the poor Mexicans would be leaving behind !

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    Oh boy - here we go. It makes my heart sad about such ignorance from people.

    On one hand they will go on about how illegal immigrants deserve this and that and then right out of the same mouth they will go on about how Americans don't deserve anything of the country they have made for themselves.

    There is plenty of R&D happening for American companies. The problem is it is happening in the far east. One only has to read the technical web sites to hear about thousands of Americans loosing their jobs and new "expansions" happening in the far east.

    One particularly irritating fashion is making the Americans train their foreign replacements else give up any severance payments. Huh. I thought they were the experts over there while we were the dimwits. I laugh at these idiots who will only hire young technocrats and completely overlook who invented the technology field as we know it today.

    The internet boom is the last burst of investing for the American worker where they can pay off their educational bills.

    Everyone was pointing at biotechnology as the next boom - but it wasn't - it was the mortgaging of what we had and will have - the housing boom.
    Fueled by the hands of illegal workers and funded by bankers contracting people into debt they can't even imagine for a period of time no one can foresee what will happen in.

    Now that the housing bubble is cracking... what is the latest boom? Ask New Jersey who's governor contemplates selling income producing assets such as the turnpike to foreign investors. Yes - paying foreigners for the right to drive on our own fucking roads. We are a nation desperate for money and so watch as a fire sale grows across the country.

    One can stop globalism. One can advocate fair trade. One can have trade agreements requiring education, the dreaded minimum wage, and worker protections. One can have agreements that promote micro-banking for new businesses to grow in new lands to serve their own people. One can have agreements for enforcing patents and copyrights.

    What is happening now is nothing but the deterioration of the United States worker. Hell, the third world is already here in many industries from home building where people pay a cut to the supervisor so he can get a job on the roof to truck drivers without any training roaming the roads far exceeding proper hours of rest.

    Working in the technology world I know this isn't academic to me. I wrote the "knowledge transfer" documents to idiots who couldn't even list a directory of files. I have seen my friends replaced by Indian workers. I have watched project slip away to foreign lands. I have seen my pay decrease by 40%.

    Is all this academic to the strip club worker? Ask the girls in Michigan. Ask the girls in the south putting up with grabby south americans accustomed to a woman knowing her place.

    It fucking pisses me off.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    well, the 'tin foil hat' crowd would argue that one major reason that the unknown millions of illegal immigrants are here and working under the table is that the 12 million Americans who are "structurally unemployed' have no incentive to work at minimum or sub-minimum wage jobs which would actually reduce their standard of living - by jeopardizing their continued eligibility for medicaid, TANF, subsidized housing, subsidized utilities, and a variety of other social welfare programs that their own paychecks could never manage to pay for !
    Tell that to the Michigan welfare recipient. Years ago they made the rule - two years and your off for ilfe. Lotta bums in Michigan. Lotta people moving out too - part of Engler's plan if you ask me.

    Like in Michigan, the time will come where that phat paycheck of free money simply won't exist anymore.

    Many will tell you those phat checks have no chance of meaning anything when it comes to paying rent in urban or suburban areas. It must be complemented in some way - under the table work and criminality.

    Slaves use to be very valuable property at one time. One had to pay dearly for them, cloth them, keep them healthy, and feed them daily. These days employers can pay people $24 a day part time - a far better deal than owning slaves!

    I agree there is no stopping the effects of globalization. However, one of those effects is to equalize the standard of living between unskilled workers in America and unskilled workers in China, India, Vietnam, Mexico etc. As this will never happen as a result of a deliberate effort, it will eventually have to happen via economic catastrophe instead ! If there is any bright side, after this happens Mexicans will no longer have any incentive to illegally immigrate to the USA, since the future standard of living for poor Americans won't be too much different than that which the poor Mexicans would be leaving behind !

    Fully agreed!

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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post

    One can stop globalism. One can advocate fair trade. One can have trade agreements requiring education, the dreaded minimum wage, and worker protections. One can have agreements that promote micro-banking for new businesses to grow in new lands to serve their own people. One can have agreements for enforcing patents and copyrights.

    What is happening now is nothing but the deterioration of the United States worker. Hell, the third world is already here in many industries from home building where people pay a cut to the supervisor so he can get a job on the roof to truck drivers without any training roaming the roads far exceeding proper hours of rest.

    Working in the technology world I know this isn't academic to me. I wrote the "knowledge transfer" documents to idiots who couldn't even list a directory of files. I have seen my friends replaced by Indian workers. I have watched project slip away to foreign lands. I have seen my pay decrease by 40%.

    Is all this academic to the strip club worker? Ask the girls in Michigan. Ask the girls in the south putting up with grabby south americans accustomed to a woman knowing her place.

    It fucking pisses me off.

    Globalism is unstoppable because where there is gains to be made from trade, it is inevitable it will occur. What you're trying to advocate is that America should be somehow different from the rest of the world because of some reason that I haven't been able to pick up from your post. That is simply nonsense.

    If companies have a choice of employing an indian for $3 or an american for $9 then as long as the american is less than 3 times as productive, they will go for the indian. The american consumer does the same when they consider whether to purchase american products or the much cheaper chinese substitutions.

    On absolute and relative terms, America is getting richer. The average american's net worth is increasing. It's just going to Gates, Buffett, Lynch and co. The lower and middle class is going to suffer until their conditions become equal to the rest of the world. Give me one reason why an American factory worker should make more money then a factory worker anywhere else?

    And if you think you can just 'stop' global trade, think again. Where there's money to be made and arbitrage profits to be had, people will find a way and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop them. Besides, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and there's no way Gates or Dell is going to want to see global trade reduced. Besides, it's not globalism per se that's the problem. Think of all the money wasted on pointless shit like war

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    Default Re: Illegal Immigration part 2 ... you can't handle the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever View Post
    Globalism is unstoppable because where there is gains to be made from trade, it is inevitable it will occur. What you're trying to advocate is that America should be somehow different from the rest of the world because of some reason that I haven't been able to pick up from your post. That is simply nonsense.

    If companies have a choice of employing an indian for $3 or an american for $9 then as long as the american is less than 3 times as productive, they will go for the indian. The american consumer does the same when they consider whether to purchase american products or the much cheaper chinese substitutions.

    On absolute and relative terms, America is getting richer. The average american's net worth is increasing. It's just going to Gates, Buffett, Lynch and co. The lower and middle class is going to suffer until their conditions become equal to the rest of the world. Give me one reason why an American factory worker should make more money then a factory worker anywhere else?
    Because we don't want to live like factory workers anyplace else. If we want the life style we are going have to pay for it.

    Otherwise it's a box of beans and a bag of rice and we'll only put meat on the table for celebrations.

    I also prefer people feeling like they have hope for a better future - but when even lawyers and scientists are being outsourced and labor arbitraged - well, I am sure you will ponder the good ole days when "good folk didn't need to live in gated communities."

    What's good for the American worker - professional, skilled, or non-skilled - is good for America.

    And if you think you can just 'stop' global trade, think again. Where there's money to be made and arbitrage profits to be had, people will find a way and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop them. Besides, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and there's no way Gates or Dell is going to want to see global trade reduced. Besides, it's not globalism per se that's the problem.
    Oh it'll stop. We can either be a little more smart about it - or end up another Venezuela, Cuba, and Bolivia. Don't think it cannot happen here - communism and socialism were very popular subjects during the depression and there were plenty of riots and violence over it. Also there was reason why McCarthy and his tool the "great" Robert Kennedy went after communists in the 50's.

    Other countries are teetering on their faith capitalism is right for them - or rather - the voters in other countries are teetering on the faith capitalism is good for them.

    Other countries - are good examples of what capitalism for the few result in. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, most of central and south Africa... ah yea - great things to look forward to.

    Or - we can simply say that upper management making more in a day than the average worker does in an entire year is wrong and the value creation needs to be shared more equally.

    Think of all the money wasted on pointless shit like war
    Where is the warfare?

    In the wealthy countries or in the poor countries we quickly aim to imitate when it comes to the common people? I hear about shoot outs in Sierra Leone and Sudan - and I hear about shoot outs in LA (quickly becoming third world) - but I don't hear about too many shoot outs in Peoria Ill.

    When people realize all globalism brings are closed jobs and shoot outs in the street - then the real fun will begin with an invigorated militia movement.

    While millions of americans watch the rich get wealthy in the record stock markets - they are going to wonder just how well corporate capitalism fulfills their needs. Hell, quite a few of them are right now.

    Globalism - like communism - worth the experiment - and the experiment is failing.

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