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Thread: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    OTTAWA (Reuters) - Immigrants to the small Quebec town of Herouxville
    must not stone women in public, burn them alive or throw acid on them,
    according to an extraordinary set of rules made public by the local
    council.

    The declaration, published on the town's Web site, has deepened a
    debate in the predominantly French-speaking Canadian province over how
    tolerant Quebecers should be towards the customs and traditions of
    immigrants.

    "We wish to inform these new arrivals that the way of life which they
    abandoned when they left their countries of origin cannot be recreated
    here," said the declaration, which also says women are allowed to
    drive, vote, dance, write checks, dress how they want, work and own
    property.

    "Therefore we consider it completely outside these norms to ... kill
    women by stoning them in public, burning them alive, burning them with
    acid, circumcising them etc."

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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Yes, but according to multiculturalism, aren't they supposed to be allowed to engage in these practices, even in the new country to which they've immigrated? After all, per multiculturalism, no one culture is better than any other culture.

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusZ View Post
    Yes, but according to multiculturalism, aren't they supposed to be allowed to engage in these practices, even in the new country to which they've immigrated? After all, per multiculturalism, no one culture is better than any other culture.
    As far as no-one is harmed, multiculturalism does not prioritise any one culture. However, immigrants must obey local laws and these dominate over cultural practices.

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    Veteran Member alenadowns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    First I will start by saying that is post is not intended to spark debate, or to upset anyone.

    I live in Alberta, Canada.......

    My daughter goes to a junior high, where she is a minority....she is a white Canadian.

    She is not permitted to celebrate birthdays (against some religions and ethnic beliefs), Christmas (again against some religion and ethnic beliefs), Valentines, Easter (again ethnic & religion).

    Her school is not permitted to have Hot Dog or Pizza Day (against ethnic beliefs)

    The 2 main languages in Canada are English & French...yet they only offer Cantonese, Mandrin, Arabic and Islamic...but NO ESL (english as a second language).

    Many immigrant come to Canada, as they do the US, because it is a welcoming country. But to enter a country and try to change its beliefs to match their own is wrong.

    They left their country to come to another to live..... "When in Rome..do as the Roman do!!"

    I am in agreeance with people preserving their heritage in their own country...but why should my child be subjected to following beliefs from a country she has never been to??? Should she not be allowed to acknowledge her own heritage??

    She attends class with a student who is permitted to carry a knife (ritual belief). She also attend classes with male students who are brought up to believe that it is acceptable to beat their women into submission!

    I really wish is was a case of local laws dominating cultural practices!!! The legal system here has adapted to include other cultural rights...but NONE OF THEIR OWN! We have changed out Police uniforms to include turbans and sheathed swords. We have changed our education to include languages.

    It is about time someone stood up to protect our own heritage, to not allow immigrants to follow their own beliefs that do in fact break our laws! The rules stated from Herouxville, have been created because some immigrants do the thing stated, as part of their beliefs.

    I watched my ethnic neighbor beat a woman from his household (not sure if it is his wife or sister...there are 12 of them living there!!) with a ROCK, the police did NOTHING!!! They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!

    Multiculturism does nothing but promote the loss of Canada's own heritage. When you move to Canada...you are now a Canadian, you left your country for a reason....If you so choose to follow immoral beliefs, then go back to your country!

    My mother was born in Russia, and my father was born in France...I am first generation Canadian...not russian or french!

    (I have to lighten this up a bit)

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by alenadowns View Post
    My daughter goes to a junior high, where she is a minority....she is a white Canadian.
    Really? There's a junior high in alberta where another ethnicity outnumbers white Canadians? You must realize that is not the norm.

    She is not permitted to celebrate birthdays (against some religions and ethnic beliefs), Christmas (again against some religion and ethnic beliefs), Valentines, Easter (again ethnic & religion).
    Birthdays? What religion/ethnicity prohibits the celebration of birthdays? Although - don't most birthday parties take place at home anyway? That's how I did it.

    Her school is not permitted to have Hot Dog or Pizza Day (against ethnic beliefs)
    Whose ethnic beliefs does pizza offend? I mean whatever rationality is behind this is actually meaningful; discussing it in a vacuum is just a way of dismissing it; and dismissing claims without thought doesn't really do much for any of our intelligence.

    Many immigrant come to Canada, as they do the US, because it is a welcoming country. But to enter a country and try to change its beliefs to match their own is wrong.
    Well perhaps; but that is not really what is going on. They are trying to make schools secular and non-religious in nature; not trying to make them conform to their own religion.

    They left their country to come to another to live..... "When in Rome..do as the Roman do!!"
    Or you could read your John Stuart Mill to examine the notion of the tyranny of the majority.
    I am in agreeance with people preserving their heritage in their own country...but why should my child be subjected to following beliefs from a country she has never been to??? Should she not be allowed to acknowledge her own heritage??
    Is she? Either prevented from acknowledging her heritage or forced to follow these beliefs? I mean - is she disallowed from celebrating Christmas, or does the school simply decline to sponsor a school celebration? Is she forced to celebrate Ramadan or Hanukkah instead? I understand what you are saying, but there is a certain amount of sheer majoritarianism here, and an unwillingness to examine the status quo. Part of being Canadian, if we're so hot on Canadianness, is tolerance and diversity; it is not simply imported Anglican belief and culture. What do act like Christmas is so fragile that if it is not acknowledged at every level government and in every aspect of public life that it might disappear, leaving us with a solstice void?

    She attends class with a student who is permitted to carry a knife (ritual belief). She also attend classes with male students who are brought up to believe that it is acceptable to beat their women into submission!
    Well then. Children whose parents have objectionable beliefs should just be barred from schools. The fact that you can have rules against beating other students notwithstanding shouldn't matter, because why should we bother punishing students for actions when we can just determine from their racial/ethnic background those infractions they are LIKELY to make. And the statement about the kirpan is just misleading - the circumstances under which they are allowed to carry them - sealed in the sheath and sewn into a pouch or clothing - are such that they are not even remote dangerous.

    The legal system here has adapted to include other cultural rights...but NONE OF THEIR OWN! We have changed out Police uniforms to include turbans and sheathed swords. We have changed our education to include languages.
    Again, this is just untrue. Including other languages is not new to our education system. Multiplicity of language and religion in the educational system is actually in the constitution. And the legal system including other cultural rights over its own - like where? How? How is wearing a turban instead of a hat interfering with one's ability to be a police officer and enforce Canadian laws?

    It is about time someone stood up to protect our own heritage, to not allow immigrants to follow their own beliefs that do in fact break our laws! The rules stated from Herouxville, have been created because some immigrants do the thing stated, as part of their beliefs.
    Really? It's interesting that you say that. Because I checked - it's even been on the local news. That's sort what has been contentious. There is really nothing that is indicating that a) there is a large influx of immigrants in Herouxville or b) that the things they discuss HAVE been a problem. That's exactly the point. It is not responding to a local problem of immigrants burning local women with acid. It is responding to stereotypes of what immigrants act like. THAT is what makes it racist. Not the fact that burning women with acid is illegal. There is no question - zero, none, at all - that stoning women and burning them with acid is illegal in Canada; it never has been contentious.

    ETA - Actually I found the precise numbers in the National Post. The town has exactly 1 immigrant family. They can readily and in fact more easily deal with these issues (if there had actually been an issue) through criminal law.

    I watched my ethnic neighbor beat a woman from his household (not sure if it is his wife or sister...there are 12 of them living there!!) with a ROCK, the police did NOTHING!!! They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!
    Is that true? I ask because... it's wrong. On multiple levels. Like there is no question that it is wrong, there is no debate that it is wrong. There has NEVER been serious debate that it is wrong. The police in your area have a gross and troublesome misapprehension of the law if they believe that you are allowed to commit crimes on your private property, if they are religiously or ethnically motivated. You're not. Your problem then is with the competence and training of police officers - not institutions that promote tolerance.

    Multiculturism does nothing but promote the loss of Canada's own heritage. When you move to Canada...you are now a Canadian, you left your country for a reason....If you so choose to follow immoral beliefs, then go back to your country!
    This just makes no sense. What you are defining as "Canada's heritage" is just imported anglicism.
    Last edited by Jenny; 03-23-2007 at 10:51 PM.
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    Veteran Member alenadowns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Really? There's a junior high in alberta where another ethnicity outnumbers white Canadians? You must realize that is not the norm.
    Apparently...1) you are not from Alberta!! OR 2) you are being a smart ass!!

    Birthdays? What religion/ethnicity prohibits the celebration of birthdays? Although - don't most birthday parties take place at home anyway? That's how I did it.
    Not that the school disallows the birthday...they do not permit the promotion of! She is not and has not been able to bring a birthday invitation in to either of her last 2 schools. It goes against Jehova Witness religion.

    Well perhaps; but that is not really what is going on. They are trying to make schools secular and non-religious in nature; not trying to make them conform to their own religion.
    Then why do we have Samosa Day in replacement to Hot Dog Day......Pork is an ingredient in Hot Dogs...as well as other un-named ingredients. Some religions do not accept pork as a comsumable meat. Why do some schools...yes only some...offer a location for silence for some ethnic religious beliefs, yet there is no chapel service offered in any school...other than denomination run?

    Part of being Canadian, if we're so hot on Canadianness, is tolerance and diversity; it is not simply imported Anglican belief and culture. What do act like Christmas is so fragile that if it is not acknowledged at every level government and in every aspect of public life that it might disappear, leaving us with a solstice void?
    Tolerance...Yes, to accept people into the country knowing the background, accepting that there will be differences than will need to be addressed, chance our society as it has existed...No. Diversity...Yes, to be understanding to the number of variances, not to accept...not be accepted.

    I like Christmas...not a buff, but I enjoy it. Canadians live in the US, do they demand that they not have their children celebrate Independence Day, since it is not recognized in their home country?


    Children whose parents have objectionable beliefs should just be barred from schools.
    Wishful thinking...every child has a right to receive formal education to conform with societies rules and regulations.

    You should not punish a child for being taught an unacceptable behavior as ritual, they should be educated on why this is not acceptable. The parents are the ones who should be held responsible.

    And the statement about the kirpan is just misleading - the circumstances under which they are allowed to carry them - sealed in the sheath and sewn into a pouch or clothing - are such that they are not even remote dangerous.
    This was a single event...the sheath was not stitched...he was blatently showing it off...and the matter was dealt with by his parents..not by the school. He still wears it, but in the appropriate and safe manner. I also want to add that no other parent was informed that a child was carrying the kirpan....regardless of the safe nature. I did not even know the correct name until my daughter told me.

    Including other languages is not new to our education system. Multiplicity of language and religion in the educational system is actually in the constitution. And the legal system including other cultural rights over its own - like where? How? How is wearing a turban instead of a hat interfering with one's ability to be a police officer and enforce Canadian laws?
    Including...yes. Replacing...NO. Spanish has been removed, German has been removed...even french has been removed as an option in some Edmonton Schools.
    Part of the Police Service is it Uniformity. I, as a woman, would not be permitted to wear my hair down, untied, under my hat.

    So I'm interested in whether or not you know that such a thing has been a problem in that town, or if you are just sharing in the stereotypical assumptions.
    I have worked in Quebec for the better part of 8 years. Montreal, Q.City, Alma, Gaspisie, Clarenceville...every corner of that province. While I am not familiar with that exact town, I am familiar with others. Those residents articulate the laws because they see what is happening in other towns and cities. They actually talk about it...over breakfast, coffee...I have witnessed this first hand. So no my opinion is not based on a stereotypical assumption.

    Is that true? I ask because... it's wrong. On multiple levels. Like there is no question that it is wrong, there is no debate that it is wrong. There has NEVER been serious debate that it is wrong. The police in your area have a gross and troublesome misapprehension of the law if they believe that you are allowed to commit crimes on your private property, if they are religiously or ethnically motivated. You're not. Your problem then is with the competence and training of police officers - not institutions that promote tolerance.
    I am starting to get tired of being questioned! The officers did not witness the event, they showed up after it was done. I wrote a statement, as did the other neighbor who called the police. To my knowledge, nothing has been done to date.
    Promote tolerance...there no tolerance for violence. Any institute that promotes a religious or cultural belief that includes violence on women should not be tolerated either.

    Quote:
    Multiculturism does nothing but promote the loss of Canada's own heritage. When you move to Canada...you are now a Canadian, you left your country for a reason....If you so choose to follow immoral beliefs, then go back to your country!

    This just makes no sense. What you are defining as "Canada's heritage" is just imported anglicism.
    Opps..misprint... Canada's Known Heritage.

    You stated earlier how a child should be banned from school for immoral beliefs..by allowing people to enter the country who follow immoral beliefs, are you not just ignoring the bigger picture of the same scenario.

    Everyone knows we have allowed known criminals into the country...so now we are to allow the unknown ones to enter because they have not been charged with acts that are not only immoral, but illegal, just because it is part of their religious or cultural beliefs?

    Everyone has a right to their own opinion.
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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by alenadowns View Post
    First I will start by saying that is post is not intended to spark debate, or to upset anyone.

    I live in Alberta, Canada.......

    My daughter goes to a junior high, where she is a minority....she is a white Canadian.

    She is not permitted to celebrate birthdays (against some religions and ethnic beliefs), Christmas (again against some religion and ethnic beliefs), Valentines, Easter (again ethnic & religion).

    Her school is not permitted to have Hot Dog or Pizza Day (against ethnic beliefs)

    The 2 main languages in Canada are English & French...yet they only offer Cantonese, Mandrin, Arabic and Islamic...but NO ESL (english as a second language).

    Many immigrant come to Canada, as they do the US, because it is a welcoming country. But to enter a country and try to change its beliefs to match their own is wrong.

    They left their country to come to another to live..... "When in Rome..do as the Roman do!!"

    I am in agreeance with people preserving their heritage in their own country...but why should my child be subjected to following beliefs from a country she has never been to??? Should she not be allowed to acknowledge her own heritage??

    She attends class with a student who is permitted to carry a knife (ritual belief). She also attend classes with male students who are brought up to believe that it is acceptable to beat their women into submission!

    I really wish is was a case of local laws dominating cultural practices!!! The legal system here has adapted to include other cultural rights...but NONE OF THEIR OWN! We have changed out Police uniforms to include turbans and sheathed swords. We have changed our education to include languages.

    It is about time someone stood up to protect our own heritage, to not allow immigrants to follow their own beliefs that do in fact break our laws! The rules stated from Herouxville, have been created because some immigrants do the thing stated, as part of their beliefs.

    I watched my ethnic neighbor beat a woman from his household (not sure if it is his wife or sister...there are 12 of them living there!!) with a ROCK, the police did NOTHING!!! They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!

    Multiculturism does nothing but promote the loss of Canada's own heritage. When you move to Canada...you are now a Canadian, you left your country for a reason....If you so choose to follow immoral beliefs, then go back to your country!

    My mother was born in Russia, and my father was born in France...I am first generation Canadian...not russian or french!

    (I have to lighten this up a bit)

    I NAME IS ALENA...AND I AM CANADIAN!!

    Okay, that's going too far. We're less politically correct than that in Australia. Here the local laws dominate, though people are certainly free to practice their own culture within those boundaries. However, the dominant culture (Anglo-Christian) hasn't been submerged. School tuckshops still sell all kinds of foods and there are still Christmas decorations everywhere in December.

    However, we are still multicultural. Multiculturalism is not supposed to be about culture dominating law. It's about different cultures living side-by-side, without any squashing the other.

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    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Dear lord, I thought the USA was too PC for its own good!

    I hate it when people come to America, but don't learn English or realize that they are in a different country. If you want the dessert, be prepared for the calories. I'm all for them keeping their culture (ie having Chinatowns), but to allow every little thing... Canada needs to get a backbone and start having an identity of its own!

    If I ever go to Canada, I'm going to claim that I'm an Epicureanist. That way, I might be able to get welfare to cover me Coqueilles-St. Jaques.

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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by alenadowns View Post
    The 2 main languages in Canada are English & French...yet they only offer Cantonese, Mandrin, Arabic and Islamic...but NO ESL (english as a second language).
    Well you do sound ignorant, since Islamic is not a language.

    Also, Jenny is not from Alberta and she is not a smart ass. She is a very nice, educated girl.

    Ok bye bye.

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    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    God, they're trying to be so PC that they're discriminating against the people who have to accomodate all the multiculturalism.

    I smell a lot of backseat drivers. I love how when a plain vanilla ice cream person tries to assert her rights, everyone jumps on the "That's racist!" bandwagon, even other plain vanilla people.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by alenadowns View Post
    Apparently...1) you are not from Alberta!! OR 2) you are being a smart ass!!
    Well, no. I'm from Toronto, where we actually keep the majority of immigrants.

    Not that the school disallows the birthday...they do not permit the promotion of! She is not and has not been able to bring a birthday invitation in to either of her last 2 schools. It goes against Jehova Witness religion.
    Really? I'd be interested in seeing how that would be litigated. For the record I agree that particular prohibition is wrong because it is using religious beliefs to govern private relationships between students, rather than making school sponsored events secular/non-partisan/inclusive.

    Then why do we have Samosa Day in replacement to Hot Dog Day......Pork is an ingredient in Hot Dogs...as well as other un-named ingredients. Some religions do not accept pork as a comsumable meat.
    Well, I was aware of that - I assumed that hot dogs would be a matter of inclusion. I mean - what's the problem with creating a treat day that all students can share in? Why in the world could this be offensive to you? It seems that if you have a large share of students who don't eat pork (as you say that you do) that this is a good thing, not a bad thing. I mean why, just in the name of practicality, would you set up a school treat day that large numbers of students can't share in? That just seems... mean. But that's also why I asked about pizza, not hot dogs.

    Why do some schools...yes only some...offer a location for silence for some ethnic religious beliefs, yet there is no chapel service offered in any school...other than denomination run?
    Offhand... because a location of silence is non-denominational and a chapel isn't? A location of silence can be used as an area of contemplation and prayer for all religions, or even non-religions and a chapel cannot?

    I like Christmas...not a buff, but I enjoy it. Canadians live in the US, do they demand that they not have their children celebrate Independence Day, since it is not recognized in their home country?
    Well again; Independence Day is secular not religious; and keeping religion out of schools and government IS in the American constitution. When they cancel Canada Day, then you may have a more legitimate complaint.

    Wishful thinking...every child has a right to receive formal education to conform with societies rules and regulations.
    Are they being educated that it is acceptable to beat women? Is the school validating these teachings? Because I've read the litigation on issues such as the kirpan; there is nothing in there that indicates such teaching would be acceptable and everything to indicate that it would not. Again, if this is in fact happening, I would worry that it is more related to the issues of your local administrators than Canadian law which is firmly against it.

    This was a single event...the sheath was not stitched...he was blatently showing it off...and the matter was dealt with by his parents..not by the school. He still wears it, but in the appropriate and safe manner. I also want to add that no other parent was informed that a child was carrying the kirpan....regardless of the safe nature. I did not even know the correct name until my daughter told me.
    Okay so - there is in fact no institutional problem here, but an individual discipline case that was, in fact, dealt with by the very parents that you are reviling.... do you honestly see no difference between this and the false impression you gave that Sikh children were just allowed to carry weapons to school?
    As for other parents being informed... for what purpose? The kirpan is sealed in a sheath and stitched into his clothing - outside of publicly painting all Sikhs as potential menaces, but purpose could a newletter informing you that Timmy is carrying one serve?

    Including...yes. Replacing...NO. Spanish has been removed, German has been removed...even french has been removed as an option in some Edmonton Schools.
    Well, removing French is kind of a big deal, and I'd be interested in how that is justified seeing as it is constitutionally mandated; the others, so what? Why would we privilege German or Spanish over Cantonese? What does German have to do with Canadian culture? Except for that it is spoken by white Europeans who are already like us, and not by shaded immigrants?

    Part of the Police Service is it Uniformity. I, as a woman, would not be permitted to wear my hair down, untied, under my hat.
    Wearing your hair down and untied under your hat is not interfering with your religious beliefs. If it was, you probably would be able to. And the entire issue was whether or not that part of the uniform was a bona fide requirement (I've read that case too). I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person would think it is acceptable to bar someone from a profession because their religion doesn't permit them to wear a hat that is not required for any health or safety issue. I mean to me, that seemed like no brainer.

    I have worked in Quebec for the better part of 8 years. Montreal, Q.City, Alma, Gaspisie, Clarenceville...every corner of that province. While I am not familiar with that exact town, I am familiar with others. Those residents articulate the laws because they see what is happening in other towns and cities. They actually talk about it...over breakfast, coffee...I have witnessed this first hand. So no my opinion is not based on a stereotypical assumption.
    Really. Because that exact town has 1 immigrant family. So your assertion that the town has been having huge problems with these behaviours is just false. And talking about women being burned with acid over coffee is a far cry from establishing that there is a ongoing problem. That is just... right, engaging with stereotype. That is what engaging with stereotype IS. The issues that are articulated tend to be civil, and some are not even legal or institutional in nature (that is they are simply negotiations between private parties). There is NOT a problem in Canada with criminal activities that they are prohibiting; that is window dressing. It is attempting to couch majoritiarianism in the guise of competing rights.

    I am starting to get tired of being questioned!
    Well, when you run around making contentious statements and making ridiculously broad and misleading assertions you have to expect that someone people might question you on it.

    The officers did not witness the event, they showed up after it was done. I wrote a statement, as did the other neighbor who called the police. To my knowledge, nothing has been done to date.
    So they didn't stand there and watch and say that it was okay because it was an ethnic belief, like you said. They showed up and investigated and you just don't know what direction the investigation has taken or what settlement might have been reached. So that was just... a false statement to try and make it seem like nasty immigrants think they are outside the criminal law that has no basis in reality at all? Very nice propoganda - it evidently works on people who have similarly little knowledge.

    Promote tolerance...there no tolerance for violence. Any institute that promotes a religious or cultural belief that includes violence on women should not be tolerated either.
    I agree. So does the Supreme Court. So do Canadian law makers. So does almost every administrative body in Canada. My point was that in the scenario that you have now admitted that you, more or less, made up the problem is not with Canadian policies of tolerance but with the competence of the police officers. There is no official body in Canada advocating making the criminal law culturally specific. That is not something you need to worry about.

    Opps..misprint... Canada's Known Heritage.
    What is Canada's Known Heritage? I mean besides imported anglican rituals? The Chinese have been in Canada for more or the less the same about of time. They were imported for labour, and indeed Canada would not exist as a country without them (if you read a little history on the role of the railroad in the history of Canada). So THEIR rituals surely deserve equal time? I mean, they are not johnny come latelies by any stretch of the imagination.

    You stated earlier how a child should be banned from school for immoral beliefs..by allowing people to enter the country who follow immoral beliefs, are you not just ignoring the bigger picture of the same scenario.
    I was being facetious. I'm sorry, I thought that was clear.
    The problem with what you are outlining is that a) we don't ban people from the country for "immoral beliefs" because part of the Canadian Heritage you are so hot on involves this weird thing we call "freedom of conscience and religion". That is - we think people get to believe what they want. It wouuld be the HEIGHT of hypocrisy to allow such a belief in Canada for (let's face it, because we all know what you mean) white people, and then put a conscience limit at the border. Like sorry - once you're inside you can believe what you want, but here at this line you have to subscribe to these beliefs here.

    Everyone knows we have allowed known criminals into the country...so now we are to allow the unknown ones to enter because they have not been charged with acts that are not only immoral, but illegal, just because it is part of their religious or cultural beliefs?
    We have? Have you read the immigration act? I'm really interested in where you get this information. I mean there are refugee claimants, and there are always problems because Canada has domestic and international obligations to not deport anyone to face torture; but a criminal record is definitely grounds to deny someone entry and refuse refugee status.

    Everyone has a right to their own opinion.
    Well. As long as you are white and like hot dogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyJane
    If I ever go to Canada, I'm going to claim that I'm an Epicureanist. That way, I might be able to get welfare to cover me Coqueilles-St. Jaques.
    Gosh, it's a good thing that not everyone is intelligent as you; because Canadian law makers and courts have no way of telling legitimate religious beliefs from made up ones. Judaism, Islam and Hinduism are ACTUAL religions; demanding a secular, or failing that, an equal public space is not "too PC for its own good."
    For crying out loud - watch the propoganda machine at work people. I mean, can you seriously not realize that most of her post was MADE UP?
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  12. #12
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazyjane View Post
    God, they're trying to be so PC that they're discriminating against the people who have to accomodate all the multiculturalism.

    I smell a lot of backseat drivers. I love how when a plain vanilla ice cream person tries to assert her rights, everyone jumps on the "That's racist!" bandwagon, even other plain vanilla people.
    I'm sorry, what rights is she trying to assert, in your opinion? Because all I see is majoritarianism - like "goddam it, they will eat hot dogs like the white people or they can goddam well go hungry". The substantive criminal issues she discussed are NOT TRUE.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    ^I rest my case.

    I never read into her saying that they had to succumb to the majority. Is it so wrong that we want to have our rights as well?

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazyjane View Post
    ^I rest my case.

    I never read into her saying that they had to succumb to the majority. Is it so wrong that we want to have our rights as well?
    You rest WHAT case? What rights of OURS are being infringed? The right to eat hot dogs at school? That was my question - what rights is she asserting? Because I don't see any. All I see is "immigrants should do like us". That is not the same as "we cannot do things that we should be able to do".

    You don't see her syaing that immigrants should succumb to the majority. Then what is the problem with samosas instead of hotdogs? What is the problem with a silent prayer area instead of a chapel? What is the problem with allowing Sikh's their religiously necessary accoutrements that are handled in a way that completely vitiates any danger? What is the problem with allowing police officers to wear turbans instead of hats? If we are not forcing them to to "succumb to the majority" why is any of this an issue? Which of our rights are any of these infringing on? Do me a favour and MAKE a case before you rest it, alright?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member Krazyjane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    We're giving all sorts of allowances to the immigrants lest we be labeled intolerant. However, what about our own practices? Our own preferences? Our own culture?

    I am all for multiculturalism, but when it infringes on the laws, or when the people already in the country are not being put first, then my qualms start.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazyjane View Post
    We're giving all sorts of allowances to the immigrants lest we be labeled intolerant. However, what about our own practices? Our own preferences? Our own culture?
    What ABOUT them? That was exactly my question. How are they being compromised? This is the case you have to make before you rest it.

    I am all for multiculturalism, but when it infringes on the laws, or when the people already in the country are not being put first, then my qualms start.
    Again, what a silly statement. What about the Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims and Jews that ARE already in the country? Secular or equal public space is not this newfangled idea. It is PART of Canadian (and for that matter American) heritage.

    As for the laws - as long as the laws themselves are not discriminatory (e.g. laws used to be on the books prohibiting Asians and Aboriginals from voting - not related to immigration by the way, since we have birthright citizenship), I agree. But that is not in contention. Like I said - the claims that there were dramatic concessions in criminal law are MADE UP. In fact, just in case that was unclear, allow me to underline: MADE UP. In case this is seriously unclear - the allegation that muslims are allowed to beat their wives on their private property is NOT TRUE. The allegation that the Charter published in Herouxville was in response to serious infringements on the law (e.g. that it was in response to hundreds of immigrants burning women with acid) is UNTRUE. There is 1 (one) immigrant family in Herouxville; and there are no criminal allegations against them. That immigrants have to follow criminal law is not in contention; making it contentious is just a way of bootstrapping non-criminal tolerance - like allowing turban wearing relgious people to work as police officers.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Well, technically you could still have Hot Dog day. You'd just have to have tofu hot dogs in addition to the pork kind. That way the pork-avoiding religious kids and the vegetarian kids would be happy!

    Come to think of it, I think a lot of school are required to provide a vegetarian alternative anyway. Or maybe I just picked that up from The Simpsons...

    Hmm.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    Well, technically you could still have Hot Dog day. You'd just have to have tofu hot dogs in addition to the pork kind. That way the pork-avoiding religious kids and the vegetarian kids would be happy!

    Come to think of it, I think a lot of school are required to provide a vegetarian alternative anyway. Or maybe I just picked that up from The Simpsons...

    Hmm.
    Lol, no I agree. There are certainly many other alternatives, and samosas are just one. It is probably expense related; samosas are both kosher and halal, and are easily verified as such.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Veteran Member alenadowns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    For crying out loud - watch the propoganda machine at work people. I mean, can you seriously not realize that most of her post was MADE UP?
    Wow...you are giving me a headache..and I have seriously changed my opinion of you. You should seriously consider your accusations before making them. Have you ever been to a school in Edmonton? Have you ever even been there??

    I watched my ethnic neighbor beat a woman from his household (not sure if it is his wife or sister...there are 12 of them living there!!) with a ROCK, the police did NOTHING!!! They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!

    First of...pardon me for not boring you with the full explaination. I stated that the Police officers just STOOD there, and did nothing...did I say watching the entire event? No, I said they STOOD there..they did NOT approach the house...they did NOT speak to the residents of the house...they did NOTHING to protect her.

    They took statements and left, and after informing both of us that...I quote, "There is really not much that we can do about this, it is a domestic dispute on private property. Unless the woman would like to make a statement and file charges, there is nothing we can do." The neighbor responded, "So you are saying that unless she stands up for herself, which her culture wont allow, she can be beaten repeatedly, and nothing can be done about it?" The officers response was, "Unfortunately, you are correct...we cannot get involved."

    Did I say that they did not interfere because of ethnicity...NO...and if you know you laws, you would also know that the affidavids signed by the neighbor, and myself, ensure that if there is any legal action taken, we would be called to reiterate out statements...and then continue to testify in court if that is where it led!

    You seem to have a real problem here with wanting to shove my words down my throat! Just to let you know I am not interested in engaging in a pissing patch of opinions.

    You live in Toronto... I live in Edmonton...two opposite ends of the country!! I do know that things are very different in each. We have an extremely diverse amount of cultures here as well....And to set the record straight..I may be a Canadian Redneck....but I am definitely not racist.

    Enjoy arguing yourself...I am out of this bash! I dont feel the need to further defend myself or my beliefs.
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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by alenadowns View Post
    Wow...you are giving me a headache..and I have seriously changed my opinion of you.
    Well, yeah, my opinion of you has changed fairly dramatically too. I guess the conversations about racism can do that.

    You should seriously consider your accusations before making them. Have you ever been to a school in Edmonton? Have you ever even been there??
    No, but I know the law that applies to these issues and I know (and I suspect you know) that you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts - if for no other reason than you have dramatically backpedalled from your initial implications.
    First of...pardon me for not boring you with the full explaination. I stated that the Police officers just STOOD there, and did nothing...did I say watching the entire event? No, I said they STOOD there..they did NOT approach the house...they did NOT speak to the residents of the house...they did NOTHING to protect her.
    Well, I think an ADEQUATE explanation is necessary. Otherwise you come across as barely half informed. I find it difficult to believe that you can honestly think that saying that police "stood in the street and didn't protect her" after stating that she was being beating on her lawn doesn't imply that they STOOD BY and didn't protect her, although I suppose it's possible.

    They took statements and left, and after informing both of us that...I quote, "There is really not much that we can do about this, it is a domestic dispute on private property. Unless the woman would like to make a statement and file charges, there is nothing we can do." The neighbor responded, "So you are saying that unless she stands up for herself, which her culture wont allow, she can be beaten repeatedly, and nothing can be done about it?" The officers response was, "Unfortunately, you are correct...we cannot get involved."
    That is NOT correct. In fact the criminal law in Canada allows a spouse to be a compellable witness in cases of spousal abuse. Again - competence of local police, and nothing to do with institutional policies of tolerance. Point being - that has nothing to do with policies of religious tolerance; therefore is not a valid vehicle to criticize religious tolerance. It likely had more to do with police officers in Alberta having little concern for spousal abuse. I agree that is a problem, but it is not with immigrants or with rights afforded to them.

    But anyway - so the police officers did not stand by and do nothing while she was being abused on her front lawn because it was private property and it was their ethnic beliefs (as you initially claimed)? Well, I'm glad. That is good to know.

    Did I say that they did not interfere because of ethnicity...NO...
    Um... yes. You said that the police would not interfere because it was on private property and an ethnically motivated belief. "They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!"
    Although you said above that they never referenced the ethnic beliefs of the neighbours, which is another misrepresentation.
    Alena, I'm sorry you find this so aggressive, but you made some extremely strong characterizations - it can't have surprised you that someone was going to question you on them. You essentially made the claim that it was allowed in Canada for men to beat their wives if it was dictated by religion; did you really think that nobody was going to correct that?

    and if you know you laws, you would also know that the affidavids signed by the neighbor, and myself, ensure that if there is any legal action taken, we would be called to reiterate out statements...and then continue to testify in court if that is where it led!
    Well I also know that the vast majority of cases are settled long before trial. And again - that has to do with decisions that the police officers make. I can assure you (if it is any comfort) that private property doesn't render criminal activity (such as assault) less criminal or more allowable. It was the police (were THEY immigrants? Was that your point?) that CHOSE to not file charges.

    You live in Toronto... I live in Edmonton...two opposite ends of the country!! I do know that things are very different in each. We have an extremely diverse amount of cultures here as well....And to set the record straight..I may be a Canadian Redneck....but I am definitely not racist.
    Yes, but the criminal law is federal; and the policies you are discussing (turbans instead of hats, kirpans in schools) have been decided by the SCC making them, more or less, federal as well.

    Enjoy arguing yourself...I am out of this bash! I dont feel the need to further defend myself or my beliefs.
    Again - if you make these vast and largely incorrect statements, it can't surprise you that someone takes you up on them. I'm sorry if I came across as too aggressive - I will even admit that these half-assed characterizations are a bit of a hot button with me, so I might have overreacted. It drives me a little bit nuts when people are all "these immigrants are getting away with murder" when the real effect is learning Chinese instead of German in high school, and they are not even willing to examine WHY that difference matters. If you were actually unfamiliar with the facts in these issues, I'm sorry I assumed you did and were deliberately misrepresenting them.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Veteran Member T-10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazyjane View Post

    I hate it when people come to America, but don't learn English or realize that they are in a different country.
    Little known fact but quite a few of the people who appear to not speak English actually do speak English. They just prefer to speak their native language with friends, family or peers.

    Also it is fairly common to pretend to not speak English to avoid a situation. This isn't just limited to English or the USA. It happens all over the world and for a variety of reasons. I've seen it and even done it myself. It can be quite useful

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10 View Post
    Little known fact but quite a few of the people who appear to not speak English actually do speak English. They just prefer to speak their native language with friends, family or peers.

    Also it is fairly common to pretend to not speak English to avoid a situation. This isn't just limited to English or the USA. It happens all over the world and for a variety of reasons. I've seen it and even done it myself. It can be quite useful
    Americans don't speak real English (ie the kind originally spoken in England) anyway . For one thing, they pronounce almost everything phonetically (eg Tudor, buoy, new), and they've completely changed the original English spelling of a plethora of words (cutting out vowels and adding in z's at an alarming rate). The language Americans speak is a bastardisation of English, really.

  23. #23
    Cally
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Okay...

    First off, living with Alena I have SEEN and HEARD the stuff she is talking about.

    She is not lying or making anything up.

    Unless im lying now too

    I have seen and heard Alenas neighbor beat the shit out of his wife... and no there was nothing that could be done about it because the wife has to file the complaint.

    I have seen her daughters school... her daughter is a minority there and i've heard them talk about what goes on in that school.... I couldnt believe it at first but its truth.

    Alberta is very redneck in a lot of ways.. but in so many others its just unbelievable. It is a different world here.

    Jenny I love you to death and consider you one of my good friends but your posts were completely out of line and to call Alena a liar is just downright rude.
    Last edited by Cally; 03-25-2007 at 05:29 AM.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    Cally - she deliberately mischaracterized to prove a point. I apologized if I came off as too aggressive, and I meant it, but my aggressiveness doesn't change that fact.

    EG - you say that police can't do anything unless the wife files a complaint (not true, by the way - I'd be worried about who is training them, but if it were); then what is the difference between a Caucasian Protestatant woman who doesn't file a complaint, and a Pakistani Muslim woman who doesn't file a complaint? What, then, do ethnic beliefs have to do with the police reaction? What, then, is this anecdote even doing in post about how ethnic beliefs impacting changes on public life? There was a deliberate implication (here: I watched my ethnic neighbor beat a woman from his household (not sure if it is his wife or sister...there are 12 of them living there!!) with a ROCK, the police did NOTHING!!! They stood in the street doing NOTHING to protect her, because it was done on his private property...and that is their ethnic belief and right to subdue the woman at all cost...BULLSHIT!) that a) the police were present, b) that private property somehow shields one from criminal prosecution and c) that his "ethnic belief" that he has the right to subdue a woman vitiates a possible assault charge. That is not true. And again - when you make these kinds of implications and characterizations, it can't be shocking when someone corrects you or questions you.

    As for what goes on in her daughters school - the only objectionable thing I've heard is that she can't hand out birthday cards (Jehovah's Witnesses, by the way, are not, by and large immigrants, are they? I mean, I'm sure there are some, but overall I wouldn't have characterized an issue with JW's as an immigrant related problem. Is that wrong?) I agree that is a problem, because it is governing private social relationships, which is not what this kind of policy is for. But, I mean I don't see eating samosas instead of hot dogs to accomodate the kosher and halal students as being a huge infringement on the rights of white Canadians, unless of course there is a religious mandate for Canadians (which I assume means Christians/lapsed Christians) to not eat samosas.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  25. #25
    242_fair
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    Default Re: Apparently Canada has an immigration problem

    The domestic violence laws in AB are the same as ON, the abused woman does not have the power to decide to press charges.

    "A charge shall be laid when police officers have reasonable and probable grounds to believe an offence has occurred. The decision should not be dependant on the complainant’s wishes. "
    f
    -from the AB gov't domestic violence guidelines for police and prosecutors


    So you could have made yourselves available as witnesses and forced the complaint and subsequent charge and arrest.

    Our system here in Canada is amazing.

    It's not that I debate that certian groups treat women with less regard. For example I saw a dude hit the hell out of his wife overseas, and the soldiers didn't help her at all.

    I guess the thing that got people upset about this town-hall constitution in PQ, is that we don't need to all go off and write these kind of treatises.

    As in the domestic volence example, the existing laws are carefully designed to cover all situations. Burning people with acid is already a crime. You cannot have multiple wives in Canada. Basically all they did here is tell us what we already know, and insite passions and inflame people.

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