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Thread: Question about an affair...

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Question about an affair...

    I apologize in advance for the length of this but I felt that background information was very, VERY much in order. Oh, and don't pre-assume anything because it isn't going where you think AT ALL!

    I have a friend (yes, REALLY, a friend ) who's a guy. We've been friends for a long time - since college. We are both married, but the thing is, he shouldn't be. He and his wife had counseling even before they got married. First two years were fine, then comes Baby #1. More counseling. Here's Baby #2. More counseling is needed but friend refuses. Wife wants Baby#3 but friend doesn't so he gets a vasectomy against his wife's wishes. Now, this isn't so much because he doesn't want more kids, he just doesn't want more kids WITH HER!. At this point he basically tells her that he doesn't love her and that if it wasn't for the kids he would be outta there. Wife has promised a bitter divorce should he ever ask for one, but seems to think that if they are still married then maybe there's a chance. However, he has no interaction with her, talks to her only about family affairs and they spend no real time together without the kids. Neither one is getting any emotional support from this relationship but they stay in it. Now, I don't have kids but I don't know how I could stay with a man that has admitted that he doesn't love me and isn't willing to do anything to make the marraige better. I think I would have gotten out at that moment but like I said, I don't have kids so I don't know.

    Fast forward 4 years and friend admits to me that he had an affair. (You'll be happy to know I'm also fast-forwarding to the point of this thread. ) My question is should his wife find out about this affair, does she have the right to be mad? To play the "victim" on coutless segments of Oprah and Dr. Phil and numerous websites? It seems to me that the affair was inevitable and that if he wasn't getting what he needed at home that he'd look for it elsewhere. (I should add the physical part of their relationship still exists, just nothing else.) Is this what it takes to get her head out of the sand and realize that he really doesn't want the marriage to work and he really IS only there because of the kids? Not that I think that's his plan since she'd probably try to get sole custody in a divorce which is why he hasn't divorced her before now. I don't even think she would divorce him. After all, they'd already agreed to stay together for the sake of the children (who by the way are 4 and 6 now).

    Earlier this week MSN Money had an article on this phenomenon called the "non-divorce" and Oprah had some couples in similar situations on her show last week. Of course, there was the assumption on there that the couple actually wished the marriage was better. That only seems to be the case with 1/2 the couple here. I guess people get married, wish they weren't and stay in the relationship for various reasons, but what should really be expected in these cases?

    Please share your thoughts on this ENTIRE situation - not just the affair. The whole thing frustrates me but since I don't have kids, I can't keep saying "Just get a divorce and be done with it." I need another perspective on this to maybe understand it.

    Thanks for reading to the end. If you thought reading it was long, try typing it TWICE (got logged out somehow and lost the whole thing. )

    PM

    (oh, and to cloud your judgement , she's one of those wives that doesn't like her husband going to strip clubs with friends, not even for birthdays etc. She isn't too keen on our friendship either, not that I can really blame her insecurities.)

  2. #2
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    If things are really that bad, then they're not doing their children any favors. I hate it when people do that, because then their kids grow up with a fucked-up view of marriage and relationships, and they wind up making everyone around them completely miserable.

    If they're going to stay together for the kids, then for G-d's sake, they need to actually be together. They aren't helping their kids at all by teaching them that a marriage is based on mutual dislike and disrespect. Would they want their kids to live that way once they're grown? Kids usually grow up to live what they learned.

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    If things are really that bad, then they're not doing their children any favors. I hate it when people do that, because then their kids grow up with a fucked-up view of marriage and relationships, and they wind up making everyone around them completely miserable.
    ITA. He says things like they don't fight in front of the kids, but kids pick up on these things. My husband's parents didn't fight in front of them either but he knew they didn't like each other.

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    Banned Blade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I would say she has a right to be pissed about the affair, but at the same time she should have divorced him when he told her he didn't love her. Staying together for the kids only fucks up the kids.

  5. #5
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Of course. Kids definitely know whether their parents love each other or not! And when they don't, but they stay under the same roof making each other miserable, it does create stress for the kids. If your friend has a daughter, he needs to think long and hard about what he wants for her future... because at this rate, she's either going to be a fucked-up emotional wreck with a long string of bad relationships based on her inability to recognize love, or she's going to wind up in a marriage to a guy just like him, who hates her and cheats on her and keeps her trapped. No decent father would wish this on his daughter, but that's the life your friend is setting up his daughter(s) for.

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Ugh, they need to divorce. My parents stayed together and didn't have the courtesy to hide their dislike from us. And my bro and I are fucked up little kids too.

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    God/dess kitana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blade View Post
    I would say she has a right to be pissed about the affair, but at the same time she should have divorced him when he told her he didn't love her. Staying together for the kids only fucks up the kids.
    Eh, I disagree. I don't think she has a right to be pissed at all. She KNEW he didn't love her, she should have divorced him when he told her.

    I do agree about fucking the kids up though.

    I think he should (and you) keep shut about it. If she does find out, an even MESSIER divorce will be the outcome.

    He should also file for divorce and custody ASAP!!!
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    They definitively need a divorce. I also think it is very selfish for the wife to want to make the divorce as "messy as possible." Divorce is a hard concept for kids to go through in general..so the real "messy" divorces are worse. Kids pick up on the messy divorces and that also affects them. She should make it as easy as possible and think of the kids first.

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blade View Post
    I would say she has a right to be pissed about the affair, but at the same time she should have divorced him when he told her he didn't love her. Staying together for the kids only fucks up the kids.
    Not necessarily. If the parents can get along, then I think it benefits the kids to stay together. The only time parents should divorce is if one is abusive and won't change. Other than that, they owe it to their kids to do WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES to keep an intact, happy home for their kids.

    Anything else is being selfish. Once you've created kids, your own happiness comes second.

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana View Post
    I think he should (and you) keep shut about it. If she does find out, an even MESSIER divorce will be the outcome.
    I have no intention of saying anything. This isn't one of those "I'm friends with both" cases. Plus I live in a totally different state FAR away. We have some mutual friends from college, but he knows I wouldn't tell them. He told me cause he trusts me and wanted to tell someone.The whole thing just makes me so sad, for everyone involved. I need new friends.PM

  11. #11
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde
    If the parents can get along, then I think it benefits the kids to stay together. The only time parents should divorce is if one is abusive and won't change. Other than that, they owe it to their kids to do WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES to keep an intact, happy home for their kids.
    They're not getting along though, and their intact home is not happy. What they need to do is both make a conscious decision to rekindle the flame and try to fall in love again. It would take an effort on both their part, but it could be done and it has to be done NOW. If one of them isn't willing to do that, then they should divorce because two happy divorced parents are better than a pair of actively hostile married ones.

    I do agree that your own happiness comes second when you have kids, but it's not good for the kids if the relationship example you're setting for them is surly and miserable. My parents divorced before I was born and I thank them for it; they were both 100&#37; there for me and involved in my upbringing, even though they deeply hated each other. They put me first. If they'd stayed married, I shudder to think what my childhood would have been like.

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    God/dess Rhiannon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I completely agree with those who have said that staying together for the kids is NOT a good idea. Been there, done that. My Ex Husband and I grew apart, and the last 2 years of our marriage wasn't so good. We weren't as close anymore, and it showed. Our kids, who were only around 3 and 5 when we finally split, could tell things weren't right. You'd be surprised at what young children DO notice, even if it's not in plain sight.

    Honestly, the marriage was over when he told her that he didn't love her anymore. She didn't listen to that. You can't force someone to stay with you, and to be HAPPY about it. And threatening someone with a messy divorce is truly pathetic.

    Staying together FOR the kids is the WRONG reason, no matter what people say. You'll only end up bitter and hateful because you wasted however many years with someone that you no longer loved, when you could've been happy elsewhere. You can still be PARENTS and not be together. The biggest thing is that the children know that they are loved by both parents, and that they had nothing to do with the ending of the marriage.

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    God/dess VenusGoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    The marriage was over before they got married.

    I do not believe that a parent's happiness comes second to a child's. The parent must be happy before the child can be. Bending over backwards to make a child happy when the parent is not is only going to result in the child thinking that you show someone love and how happy you are by buying things. An unhappy parent makes an unhappy child. A happy parent makes a happy child. If these people are THAT unhappy, then they need to split ways.

    And, your friend totally screwed himself when he had that affair. Depending on what state he lives in, that will make a big difference in the divorce. Judges don't care about the whole "Well, we weren't getting along..." line of bullshit. If you are unhappy, you move on...you don't go fucking around the mother of your children's back.

    The wife, however, has nothing to complain about. She chose and continues to choose to stay in a relationship that is demeaning, unfulfilling, etc. She is just as much at fault as your friend. She's never going to file for divorce. Ever. If he wants to run around/find someone new, then he's going to need to just file for the divorce.

    I hope they keep it civil. I hope that they think of the children during this time as little people with FEELINGS and EYES, and EMOTIONS...and not some little pawns in a game to inflict pain on each other.

    Your friend is a moron. Tell him to stop acting like an asshole and start thinking about his kids.

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I grew up the child of divorced parents and I can tell you that I would rather have had an intact household where my parents tolerated each other and got along for mine and my sister's sake than the alternative (which was that my mom moved away, I only saw my dad a few times a year, and both of them got remarried to people that I don't really like all that much).

    Once you have kids, they become more important than you. Got into a bad marriage? Sorry, that it a shame...but suck it up and make it work. Go to counseling, compromise heavily, whatever, but grow up and at least make your home happy for your kids' sake.

  15. #15
    Kaylinn
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    grew up the child of divorced parents and I can tell you that I would rather have had an intact household where my parents tolerated each other and got along for mine and my sister's sake than the alternative (which was that my mom moved away, I only saw my dad a few times a year, and both of them got remarried to people that I don't really like all that much).

    Once you have kids, they become more important than you. Got into a bad marriage? Sorry, that it a shame...but suck it up and make it work. Go to counseling, compromise heavily, whatever, but grow up and at least make your home happy for your kids' sake.
    You know how incredibly HARD it would be for 2 people who do not get alogn and cannot stand one another, to "suck it up" for the kids sake. Even if they managed to put on a happy face in front of the kids, what went on behind closed doors, and the stress and uneasiness of living together like that would strain the family anyway.

    What woudl be much mor eideal for everyone involved, and easier to do woudl be divorce, work out their issues, put it behind them, become friendly, and work it out like bruce and demi. Not EVERYONE is happy, not just the kids( who still sence somethig is wrong)

    I wouldn't want to send the mesage to my kids that if they were in an unhappy relationship that they should try to stick it out. I would want my kids to know that they deserve happiness no matter what, and by staying in a bad marriage, thats telling the kids that its ok to be stuck in an unhappy relationship.

    Of course, the first, and best thing to do would be try to rekindle the marriage. try counsuling. Try to fall back in love. But if it isnt possible...divorce, and remain friendly. And if that isnt possible, and you hate yrou ex spouse...please, please dont bad mouth him/her to the children.

    My mothe rdid that insessantly. your dads an ass, yoru dads a dick, blah blah, and Im thinking, well, hes pretty nice to me, so I dont get why he's so bad?
    Then she'd say, oh, did you have fun at your dads this weekend? what does he do that so special? you have more fun with him that me dont you? well, jsut remember, he;s an asshole. She tried to make me hate him like she did...well, instead it made me hate her.

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    I grew up the child of divorced parents and I can tell you that I would rather have had an intact household where my parents tolerated each other and got along for mine and my sister's sake than the alternative (which was that my mom moved away, I only saw my dad a few times a year, and both of them got remarried to people that I don't really like all that much).
    I guess the grass is always greener. But I've watched the pattern. As I mentioned, my DH's parents hated each other (still do) but stayed married with 3 boys. Now we've just found out that the middle son has had an affair for the last 15 years (wife apparently knew about it somewhat but thought it was over). When it came to light a few years ago (still not publicly - just between my BIL and SIL), their son, then 13 started getting bad grades in school and just being uninterested in things. Now that it's all out in the open, my nephew's behavior makes sense now. Even though his parents were trying to keep this from him and his sister, obviously he knew something was going on.

    So we have one set of parents who should've divorced, a son that felt that staying together for the kids was what you do so he had an affair on the side, and kids (in both cases) that knew something was wrong even though the parents tried to hide it.

    PM

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    All I'm saying is that once you have kids, you owe it to them to do whatever it takes to make sure they have a happy home. If the parents are telling their kids that the other parent sucks, then they're not doing everything they can and someone should step in and make them aware of their stupid ass behavior.

    I did add the codicil of "abusive parents should divorce."

    But divorcing just because you don't love each other or you're tired of each, or you disagree a lot...that is crap. If you have kids and don't love your spouse, and there is no verbal/physical abuse, then make it work.

  18. #18
    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    All I'm saying is that once you have kids, you owe it to them to do whatever it takes to make sure they have a happy home.
    ...And what I believe the ladies are getting at is yes, you do owe it to your kids to make sure they have a happy home. However, sometimes the parents staying together miserable does NOT always equal the happier situation. Someone else said on here that their home was happier because their parents were smart enough to realize the home would be happier if they weren't married.

    Parents should also remember that divorce does not equal time to slack off on parenting and let one parent do all the work/parenting. As long as both parents make sure they're doing their share, then all is much better than staying together miserable.

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    God/dess shasta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    My dad stayed with my mom for us. He never even told her he didn't love her, but he didn't and he was having an affair (that only I know about). My parents were both big supporters of our athletics. I think my dad thought he wouldn't be able to go to our games anymore if he left my mom. Parents + kids + sports = craziness, but that is another thread.
    My point is that I never saw my parents hold hands, kiss, or hug. My own relationships end because of my negative attitude toward them. My sister moved out at 16 (from an upper middle class family) because she couldn't be there anymore. At that time I was 18 and in college. My dad left and my mom showed up at my dorm room crying. My dad became very depressed. Now IS easier than later.

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    God/dess Mastridonicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I may not have the right advice about this, but I'm going to explain what I did in this similar situation sans the kids.

    I don't hate my ex. I wish I did, I just am... well over her. I was over her the day I married her. I tried to re-ignite things for about a year, and spent a fortune doing so. I just wasn't happy.

    But regardless I made a commitment. I made a commitment to honor her in a way that I had specifically stated.

    I chose to follow those commitments. Not in honor of her, or the god we swore before, but for my own word and for myself.
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastridonicus View Post
    I may not have the right advice about this, but I'm going to explain what I did in this similar situation sans the kids.

    I don't hate my ex. I wish I did, I just am... well over her. I was over her the day I married her. I tried to re-ignite things for about a year, and spent a fortune doing so. I just wasn't happy.

    But regardless I made a commitment. I made a commitment to honor her in a way that I had specifically stated.

    I chose to follow those commitments. Not in honor of her, or the god we swore before, but for my own word and for myself.
    Mast - Did your wife know how you felt? Did she still want to be married or did she become your ex when she found out? Yes you made a commitment to honor her but wouldn't that mean wanting her to be happy? Since she's your ex I'm guessing something happened. Was it similar to this situation at all?

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    Veteran Member Obenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I'm going to step out from what seems to be the norm of this thread and say stay out of this; it's none of your business!

    It's his marriage, not yours, so it's not really any of your business. His talking to you about it doesn't make it your business either. Also keep in mind you're only hearing the version he wants to tell you and there is a LOT you don't know about!

    Really, don't give this guy any marriage advice. You're not coming to it from a knowledgeable perspective because it's not your marriage. Marriage is between 2 people, and you're not one of them.

    Really, stay out of it. Nothing good will come to you from it. If you want to be a "friend" then just listen, don't offer advice. I know it's frustrating to always "just listen" to a friend who is having a rough time, but that really is what you should do. It's not always easy being a friend.

    One suggestion: if you've known this guy for so long, I imagine he's buddies with your husband too. Maybe he should talk to him (another guy) to vent, instead of you. If his wife isn't too keen on your friendship, that's a sign. Maybe she picks up on something you don't.

  23. #23
    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    I believe many of us were advising her to stay out fo it if you read the thread entirely.

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    Senior Member PorschaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Obenta View Post
    I'm going to step out from what seems to be the norm of this thread and say stay out of this; it's none of your business!

    Really, don't give this guy any marriage advice. You're not coming to it from a knowledgeable perspective because it's not your marriage. Marriage is between 2 people, and you're not one of them.

    Really, stay out of it. Nothing good will come to you from it. If you want to be a "friend" then just listen, don't offer advice. I know it's frustrating to always "just listen" to a friend who is having a rough time, but that really is what you should do. It's not always easy being a friend.
    Don't think I'm being defensive, cause I'm not (plus I don't want any of those "points" I just heard about ) but if you check the OP, I never asked what *I* should do or suggested that *I* was planning to do anything. I am just frustrated about the whole thing and hoped someone could make me understand why people would live this way. So far, it seems that no one else understands this either (except for Mast and Mr. Hyde - hmm..gender gap perhaps??? Girls think it's more important to be loved and happy. Guys think you should live up to your obligation???).

    My friend knows what I think about the situation and that I think he's cheating himself and his wife from being truly happy, but in the end it's his life. They are his kids and I'm not going to be the one responsible for anything that may or may not occur in case of a divorce. I've never actually said to him "Just get a divorce and be done with it" (thought I've thought it a gazillion times), more like "are you sure this is how you want things to be" then drop it. I do try to give him another perspective on things like how his kids might not be as oblivious as he thinks but I never force anything on him. I'm not the only friend of his that knows all the background information. (They don't know about the affair though because they *are* also friends with his wife.) His other friend's don't understand why they had kids but I don't get why they got married.

    The only question I asked beyond general assessments of the matter was if his wife has a right to be mad about the affair IF she found out (which I hope she never does) since she's the type to make herself out to be the victim. It just seemed to me that in this situation you are setting yourself up for something like this to happen.

    Basically, since "bitch-slapping" some sense into him is out of the question, and there's only so much I can say, I needed somewhere to vent and to make sure I wasn't crazy thinking that this whole thing is f-ed up.

    BTW, I don't think it's wrong to care about your friends' happiness and let them know if you think they are making a mistake, have clouded judgement, or doing something wrong. Friends aren't supposed to sit back and just watch their friends screw up their lives unless they can say they made some effort to get them to stop. After that, they are on their own. Plus, can you honestly say that if you were friends with the wife in this situation and she told you all of this, you wouldn't tell her she was stupid to still be married or at least ask her why she puts up with it?

    PM

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    Moderator Optimist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about an affair...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaylinn View Post
    And if that isnt possible, and you hate yrou ex spouse...please, please dont bad mouth him/her to the children.

    My mothe rdid that insessantly. your dads an ass, yoru dads a dick, blah blah, and Im thinking, well, hes pretty nice to me, so I dont get why he's so bad?
    Then she'd say, oh, did you have fun at your dads this weekend? what does he do that so special? you have more fun with him that me dont you? well, jsut remember, he;s an asshole. She tried to make me hate him like she did...well, instead it made me hate her.
    Sooootruuuue!!! Welcome to my world. My mother couldn't keep her trap shut about her ex from hell (Dad) when I was growing up. Now, ironically my step mother can't keep her trap shut about him. Good times, good times..... I digress. It's BAD to stay together in a loveless marriage. The kids hate hearing the stupid incessant fights. Tell him to get a lawyer already!

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