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Thread: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

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    Default our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ... too bad we no longer listen to what they had to say ...




    actually my favorite founding fathers quote was tucked at the very end ...

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not" - Thomas Jefferson

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-10-2007 at 07:55 AM.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    I also agree with the quotes regarding the banking system and merchants. As to people who would not work, I can't criticize the illegal aliens for that - most are willing to work very hard, and for what seems to be very little money to most Americans.

    But it is the banking system, via allowing the opening of accounts via accepting matricular consular cards in place of Social Security numbers, who become accomplices to laundering gang drug money. This is the disadvantage of allowing this for legiotimate purposes.

    As to the quote about the merchants, this, along with the Congress being immune to lawsuits(along with their private pensions, instead of being in the Social Security system with everyone else), are the things which infuriate me the most about the U.S. government.

    As Deogal pointed out in another thread, the U.S. government should have been helping the Mexican government rebuild its middle class. Instead, the only interest appears to be destroying what is now left of the middle class in the U.S.
    Last edited by PhaedrusZ; 02-10-2007 at 09:21 AM. Reason: typos

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ^^^ agreed on fiat money ... especially synthetic fiat money created by wall st

    also agreed on merchants only having loyalty to themselves

    As to the 'targeted destruction' of the middle class, that's definitely something that would cause the founding fathers would roll over in their collective graves.

    However, in terms of a rich and powerful ruling 'elite' and a vast gathering of 'serfs' who are dependent on their 'lords' to supply them food, shelter and entertainment as long as they worked their butts off and didn't make waves, this was the historical norm for at least two millenia. The rise of a 'middle class' who were capable of thinking for themselves, who desired to control their own lives, and who were capable of gradually amassing money and power through their own hard work despite the wishes of the 'lords', represented a 'dangerous' development to the 'lords' and 'serfs' socioeconomic system.

    America was arguably created as a haven for the 'middle class'. However, as you point out, for the past several generations there seems to be a hidden agenda by the ruling 'elite' around the world to slowly destroy the 'middle class'. The 'tin foil hat' crowd would tell you that the only difference between today's ruling 'elite' and the ruling 'elite' at the time America was founded was that back then the 'elite 'inherited money and titles ... whereas today the 'elite' inherit money and connections.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... too bad we no longer listen to what they had to say ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rErukvYVPOI


    actually my favorite founding fathers quote was tucked at the very end ...

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not" - Thomas Jefferson

    ~

    Melonie that was beautiful. I just wish I could pay to have that air on telvision to awaken and un blind peoples eyes. America is beautiful because of it's freedom. Now they are talking it beauty away!
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ^^^ unfortunately, freedom in America is a two edged sword. It usually turns out that Americans who support freedom from gov't investigations don't support their neighbor's freedom to own a handgun (or at least not without a gov't investigation). It usually turns out that Americans who support freedom from religious judgement (i.e. gay marriage) don't support their neighbor's freedom to open a brothel in their neighborhood. It usually turns out that Americans who support freedom from inequality don't support their neighbor's freedom to refuse payment of income taxes that fund the social programs which supposedly address that inequality.

    By definition freedom is not selective or ideological. Either people grant the gov't the right to do something / prevent something or they don't. Over the years since the Constitution was written, Americans have ceded a large number of 'rights' to the gov't - the collection of income taxes, regulations concerning which substances can or cannot be sold/purchased/ingested, regulations concerning how private property can or can't be used, the printing of money by private banks, the investigation of personal documents, and a long list of other issues.

    Unfortunately, then as now, some Americans were arguing that ceding these 'rights' to the gov't was a beneficial change while others were arguing for freedom despite the loss of those potential benefits. If Americans really want freedom they can't draw a dotted line down the middle of that freedom, or set a bunch of conditions for that freedom.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Well, thankfully, the gun control debate is effectively over. The dems went on and on about that and all it achieved for them was losing the presidency and both houses of congress. Throw in terrorism and cells actually existing in the US RIGHT NOW -- an elected official would be a complete idiot to try and get that train started again.

    My problem with income taxes - and most people in the know who complain about them - know it ends up in the pockets of Saudi princes and rich dictators. That 363 tons of money (literally) can disappear. Meanwhile they tell us they need to raise the property taxes so they can afford to build more toll roads. We are NOT getting our money's worth in such an amazing way compared to when our grandparents complained of being taxed!

    The constitution is dead. They let corporations do the dirty work. Search and Seizure - fucking Fry's has people right there to stop and search you. The constitution doesn't apply to Fry's you know. Drug tests, reading your email, handing your searches over without warrant... the corporation's has made things so much more simple.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    ...My problem with income taxes - and most people in the know who complain about them - know it ends up in the pockets of Saudi princes and rich dictators. That 363 tons of money (literally) can disappear. Meanwhile they tell us they need to raise the property taxes so they can afford to build more toll roads. We are NOT getting our money's worth in such an amazing way compared to when our grandparents complained of being taxed!

    The constitution is dead. They let corporations do the dirty work...the corporation's has made things so much more simple.
    First, I do not believe a corporation should have ever been given the same rights as a real person, being considered, as it is, to be an "artificial person."

    As to taxation, I want a Constitutional amendment repealing the 16th amendment, and making sure it can't ever be replaced with anything else. Primarily because it would permanently end "corporate welfare" for the corporations, in that there would be no more incentive provided to engage in such. It's Draconian, but I don't believe corporate CEOs will understand anything else at this point. It's true the corporations wouldn't be taxed as well, but neither would the corporations be collecting tax benefits from the government anymore.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    It's true the corporations wouldn't be taxed as well, but neither would the corporations be collecting tax benefits from the government anymore.
    careful, you'll bankrupt the US ethanol industry, wind power industry etc. !

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Agreed, they were amazing. looking back. (Except for the slavery thing of course.)

    HOWEVER.... The Founding Fathers were not placed there by popular vote garnered by sound bites bought and sold on the TV screen.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ... actually, the popular vote wanted to make George Washington the King of America !

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... actually, the popular vote wanted to make George Washington the King of America !
    Thankfully He refused even when encouraged by the Officers of the Continental Army. The Army that hadn't been paid, owed equipment, and malnourished. Saved from a Dictatorship by an Ultra Rightwing Career Military Man. That gotta hork so Historical revisionists a bit.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... actually, the popular vote wanted to make George Washington the King of America !
    I recall hearing that. Democracy doesn't work too well with an uneducated or uninformed electorate - or one slanted toward ulterior motives (such as espousing a particular autocratic philosophy or fleecing the common taxing authority).
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    He just revolted against a King.
    France was beginning the idea of beheading their King.

    I wonder why he didn't want to be King. Hmmm.

    Regarding slavery - there was a great amount of debate over it... and it wasn't resolved until the 1860's (and some question about that even.)

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    He just revolted against a King.
    France was beginning the idea of beheading their King.

    I wonder why he didn't want to be King. Hmmm.

    Regarding slavery - there was a great amount of debate over it... and it wasn't resolved until the 1860's (and some question about that even.)
    For States below the Mason Dixon line. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't do much for slaves above that line.

    In Civil War II it will be about individual rights, not States rights. The outcome will certainly shake things up in all walks of life.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    no chance of a Civil War 2 ... today's Americans would rather switch than fight.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    no chance of a Civil War 2 ... today's Americans would rather switch than fight.
    I think things would have to get a whole lot worse before this crowd would revolt.

    It would have to be Katrina all over the states - at least 50% of em.

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ^^^ and no crowd is going to revolt if it means giving up their monthly social welfare program benefit checks !

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    Default Re: our Founding Fathers were pretty smart people ...

    ^^^ Agreed. In America, it won't be a revolt, it will be an increase in criminality as one tries to negotiate surviving and lawfulness. The revolt might actually be illegal alien gang members when a squeezed at the border.

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