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Thread: Death Certificates for Abortions?

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    Banned gingerlee's Avatar
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    Default Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Does anybody else think it's wrong to be pushing a law here in Tennessee that requires any woman that has an abortion has to be issued a death certificate by the state? Woman have a tough enough decision already, why make a woman have to take a death certificate home with her?

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    So the family name is on the certificate and the abortion wah-hoo's can picket her house and spread rumors about her.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    when states started leveling double murder charges for pregnant women, the defense lawyers first question probably was "where are the two death certificates" ?

    Obviously, if this death certificate for fetuses thing takes off, it will eventually have other legal consequences too.

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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    That's horrible! I don't even know what to say........ I'm still trying to process that through my brain......

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    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    That is just wrong
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  6. #6
    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Oh for fucks sake, how fucking ridiculous!

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    Banned gingerlee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    when states started leveling double murder charges for pregnant women, the defense lawyers first question probably was "where are the two death certificates" ?

    Obviously, if this death certificate for fetuses thing takes off, it will eventually have other legal consequences too.
    That's what I was thinking. When you start issuing death certificates for abortions at some point there is going to be a legal issue over it. The thing I don't understand is why they are even trying to do this in the first place, what's it going to accomplish?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    ^^^ probably the lifelong incarceration of MD's performing abortions, eventually. After all, if a fetus is issued a death certificate, it strongly implies that the fetus was alive to start with ! And if a murderer can get an increased sentence for killing a pregnant mother and 'killing' her fetus versus just killing a woman who isn't pregnant, a legal precedent regarding the 'killing' of fetuses already carries a criminal penalty.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ probably the lifelong incarceration of MD's performing abortions, eventually. After all, if a fetus is issued a death certificate, it strongly implies that the fetus was alive to start with ! And if a murderer can get an increased sentence for killing a pregnant mother and 'killing' her fetus versus just killing a woman who isn't pregnant, a legal precedent regarding the 'killing' of fetuses already carries a criminal penalty.
    Yep. A backdoor (or at least a test case for the courts.)

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    What's this all about? Scaring women into not having abortions, since a death certificate would create a public record, namely one with the mother's name on it.

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/14/D8N9LFT00.html

    (snip)
    Nashville, Tenn. (AP) -- Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions. (snip)


    There's already been some stuff in the news recently about mothers who want to get death certificates for unborn children lost to stillbirth or miscarriage. A lot of civil liberties groups weren't crazy about the idea for fear it would be used as a backdoor tool to go after abortion. Gee, I can't imagine why they would think something like that.
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish View Post
    What's this all about? Scaring women into not having abortions, since a death certificate would create a public record, namely one with the mother's name on it.



    (snip)
    Nashville, Tenn. (AP) -- Legislation introduced in Tennessee would require death certificates for aborted fetuses, which likely would create public records identifying women who have abortions. (snip)


    There's already been some stuff in the news recently about mothers who want to get death certificates for unborn children lost to stillbirth or miscarriage. A lot of civil liberties groups weren't crazy about the idea for fear it would be used as a backdoor tool to go after abortion. Gee, I can't imagine why they would think something like that.

    All I can figure is that they really are trying to scare girls into not having abortions. Honestly, who wants a death certificate that is public record following them around for the rest of their life?

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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    This tripe of a legislation is pure political grandstanding. I would like to believe that the majority of the anti-choice crowd is not that cruel.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Another exercise in bad taste and poor judgment.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    And focusing on so called "moral" issues than the real hard to fix shit peering over the wall at us.

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    Veteran Member christian211's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    I don't understand why this is even being brought to the table? What purpose is this serving? Maybe I'm slow. I don't get it!!

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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    People wanted to pass laws which created harsher penalties when a pregnant woman was murdered thus her fetus was 'murdered' as well than if the victim was not pregnant. This created an unintended legal consequence that 'killing' a fetus must carry a criminal penalty in addition to the criminal penalty for killing the woman, which in turn created a defense lawyer's 'loophole' of forcing the prosecution to produce a death certificate for the fetus in order to prove that the fetus was 'killed'. Political gamesters would now have all fetuses that were 'killed' be issued a death certificate - reminding people that abortions 'kill' fetuses, and arguably laying the groundwork for the future complication / outlawing of elective abortions.

  17. #17
    Kaylinn
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Question - a fetus doesn't become a fetus until 8 weeks of gestation. Before that, it is still an embryo. So is the law exactly death certificates for a fetus or for any pregnant womans unborn, regardless of gestation age?

    And Im probably wrong about this, Melonie can set me striaght probably, but isnt it true that with thoes murder cases, the laywer needs to prove that the unborn baby would have to have been able to live outside of the womb at the time of its death, in order to be charged with murdering it? In other words, if a pregnant woman was murdered at 20 weeks pregnant, the murderer could not be charged with the murder of the fetus, because it could not have survived outside of the womb anyway, but if the woman had been say, 30 weeks pregnant, the fetus could have survivied outside the womb, so then you can be charged with the murder?

    And..if you fill out a death certificate, dont you need a name for the deceased? Which means that if a woman has an abortion she will need to first give a name to the embryo/fetus she is aborting. Now that you have given it a name, and humanized it, this really disuades a woman from having an abortion.
    I think the whole thing is assanine. If they want to disuade women from having abortions ,then they should have better adoption programs in place, and make adoption an easier process, and make information on it more readily available. No woman should be forced to keep a child she doesn't want or is unable to care for. SO many people are claim to be prolife, but really they are just probirth, and dont give a rats ass about what happens to this fetus after it is born. If they are going to push to ban abortions, or disuade women from having them, then they need programs in place to care for the babies after they are born. But then again, no woman shoudl be forced to be pregnant if she doesn't want to be, but Ive gotten a little to far off topic now so I'll stop.

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    Banned gingerlee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaylinn View Post

    And..if you fill out a death certificate, dont you need a name for the deceased? Which means that if a woman has an abortion she will need to first give a name to the embryo/fetus she is aborting. Now that you have given it a name, and humanized it, this really disuades a woman from having an abortion.
    I think that's the whole point of this law. If you humanize something, you are going to have second thoughts about going through with an abortion, which is what 'they' (whoever introduced this law) want. It's a hard enough decision in the first place, so adding more emotional decisions to the mix is just asking for trouble.

    I honestly hope that this law is struck down before they can actually use it. Otherwise we are going to have more young teen mothers and fathers, more people on welfare, more people with minimal education trying to survive, etc. Not being cynical, but making this into a law affects more than just the girl going to a clinic. Sometimes I wonder kind of time warp the Tennessee state government got stuck in.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    ^^^ yes one has to assume that the intent of this law i.e. the forcing of a 'test case' on the federal courts is NOT to have 'Lacey Laws' declared unconstitutional. If and when this issue gets before a federal judge, the basic legal issue that will need to be decided is whether a fetus constitutes a 'blob of cells' or 'something more than that'.

    If the judge decides on the 'blob of cells', then people seeking and providing abortions can carry on as before, but 'Lacey Laws' will be ruled unconstitutional because they attempt to criminalize killing a 'blob of cells'. On the other hand if the judge decides on 'something more than that', then 'Lacey Laws' could remain on the books but abortion procedures would be forced to recognize that 'something more than that' is being 'killed' when the abortion is performed. At a very minimum this allow the fetal death certificate issue to stand constitutionally speaking. Such a decision would also kick the door wide open for the (re)institution of other sanctions against abortion providers.

    If the backers of this bill are successful in getting the fetal death certificate requirement put in place, a whole lot of consequences will follow. As a matter of public record, the names of girls getting abortions would be published in local newspapers along with other birth and death notices. Also as a matter of public record instead of private medical record, the fact that a girl had an abortion would be available to family courts, prospective employers, local cops etc. IMHO such a development would certainly make a girl's decision to go the abortion route much more complicated than is presently the case.

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    Featured Member Lola Lee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerlee View Post
    Sometimes I wonder kind of time warp the Tennessee state government got stuck in.
    I don't know how you could expect anything different from TN legislature. I grew up in rural East TN ... talk about backwards mentality. A bunch of Snake handeling freaks.




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  21. #21
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    It's times like this when I'm glad for the old joke that Memphis is really the capital of Mississippi. The rest of Tennessee won't claim us, and honestly, we don't like the rest of Tennessee either! I'd rather be affiliated with Mississippi than East Tennessee... at least Mississippi has gambling and booze.

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    God/dess blondhottie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. Plus you can't even determine the sex of the baby until you're in week 16 of pregnancy, and most women who have abortions have them before that point. You need a name to put on the death certificate, and how can you name it if you don't even know whether it's a boy or a girl? Just a dumbass idea to try to scare women out of having abortions.






  23. #23
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    Quote Originally Posted by blondhottie View Post
    This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. Plus you can't even determine the sex of the baby until you're in week 16 of pregnancy, and most women who have abortions have them before that point. You need a name to put on the death certificate, and how can you name it if you don't even know whether it's a boy or a girl? Just a dumbass idea to try to scare women out of having abortions.
    Yeah... I wondered when I first saw the thread how you'd issue a death certificate without a birth certificate (among other things). It occurs to me that it is less a death certificate and more a special abortion certificate.
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life. It just boggles my mind....

  25. #25
    Lola Rose
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    Default Re: Death Certificates for Abortions?

    wow that's so backward, and wrong....

    at the same time, I wish i had a death certificate for the child i miscarried. i think that would be ...nice?.... to have.

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