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Thread: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

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    Default Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    This is a speech delivered on the House Floor by Congressman Patrick Murphy, an Iraq War veteran. He co-sponsored the Iraq De-Escalation Act of 2007, which is pending (HR 787)...which Murphy calls "a moderate and responsible plan to start bringing our troops home, mandating a surge in diplomacy, and refocusing our efforts on the War on Terror in Afghanistan".

    HR 787 calls for redeployment to start in May 2007 and finish by early 2008.

    Link to Speech on YouTube:



    I hope you join me in supporting this redeployment. Please consider writing and calling your US House members and Senators.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Considering the current body of public and political opinion in the USA, I'd support this ! Hopefully, when the next Islamist terror attack occurs on US soil it will happen in California or Illinois or Texas and not in New York - as we still haven't rebuilt after the last one !

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    I nominate a Bitch slap for Congressman Patrick Murphy.

    It is not the job for Congress to dictate the Use of the Armed Forces. It is the Job of Congress to Declare War, produce the budget, and provide oversight.

    There is only one Commander in Chief not the 400 + of the combined Senate and Congress.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    If they declare war (cough cough - never did) then they can un-declare war.

    If the war was to remove Saddam - they succeeded.
    If the war was to create a new democracy with elections and a constitution - the succeeded.

    There comes a point where the Iraqi's need to put the boot in the sand and sturdy up for a peaceful life.

    Personally, I think given the culture there and in their neighborhood - it is an impossible dream.

    Let them kill their own. We don't need to be there with troops. This is an intelligence and "phone bomb" war. If they find a hide-out or strong hold - fucking drop some shit on them.

    Wars should be short and harsh. We have been fucking around in Iraq since 1991 - 16 years is a little long for one loonie.

    The War on Terror takes place in our visa control system and our borders. To use tactics aimed at governmental intervention on an ideological movement is doomed.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    ^^^ hmmm, it took us 50 years to bring American troops home from Europe after WW2 ... and quite a few are still there ! Similarly, we still haven't brought 30,000 odd troops home from Korea. But the US congress had / has no problems funding those 'adventures' as long as the Russians / Chinese next door pose a threat.

    Since the days of Jimmy Carter's helicopter fiasco Iran has posed an equal threat to US strategic interests, and now essentially poses a nuclear threat as well. With no military ally in the region except Israel with the will or the means to effectively intervene, and with the political / religious tinderbox involved if Israel did intervene, pulling US troops out of Iraq at this stage of the game can only end in two ways ... bad or worse.

    IMHO US public opinion about military presence in the middle east won't change much until we have a new (and probably radioactive) smoking crater in a different American city, tens of thousands of new dead US civilians, five dollar rationed gasoline, and a second great depression. At that point, with 100 million angry American voters climbing the capitol steps, the US congress will either be glad to authorize a 'pound of cure' to continue the American 'way of life' (i.e. World War 3) or will have to explain to those angry American voters that, lacking world military influence, the American poor and middle class can look forward to the same standard of living as the poor and middle class of other countries that also lack world military influence (i.e. Mexico, India, Slovenia).

    Personally speaking, the current 'ounce of prevention' approach would be a lot easier in both terms of American lives lost and in terms of total US dollars spent.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    While the majority of US citizens would like to see us leave Iraq post haste it is simply not possible . If we left in the next year the Iranians would probably gain control of most of the country . Russia is in a stragetic alliance with Iran to produce and distribute natural gas as Russia has the largest reserveres of natural gas in the world. Iran and Venezuela are allies and Venezuela owns Citgo here in the US(14,000 gas stations).
    Given this set of facts the enemies of the US would control enough of the the world's energy supplies to make a mess out of our economy in light of the fact that we are way too dependent on oil and natural gas. There is no quick fix in the near future for our energy requirements. Ethanol is never going to replace petroleum according to most experts as corn is not nearly as an efficent source of ethanol as sugar cane is in Brazil which uses mostly ethanol for all its autos.
    We will need to stay in the Iraq for the foreseeable future , however, a much better military strategy could make this safer for our troops and less costly for the taxpayers. Remember this all started with the fall of the Shaw of Iran and susbequently the two wars with Iraq have now lead us to one ugly situation.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    I nominate a Bitch slap for Congressman Patrick Murphy.

    It is not the job for Congress to dictate the Use of the Armed Forces. It is the Job of Congress to Declare War, produce the budget, and provide oversight.

    There is only one Commander in Chief not the 400 + of the combined Senate and Congress.


    hehehe I second that motion!
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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by starman1148 View Post
    While the majority of US citizens would like to see us leave Iraq post haste it is simply not possible . If we left in the next year the Iranians would probably gain control of most of the country . Russia is in a stragetic alliance with Iran to produce and distribute natural gas as Russia has the largest reserveres of natural gas in the world. Iran and Venezuela are allies and Venezuela owns Citgo here in the US(14,000 gas stations).
    Given this set of facts the enemies of the US would control enough of the the world's energy supplies to make a mess out of our economy in light of the fact that we are way too dependent on oil and natural gas. There is no quick fix in the near future for our energy requirements. Ethanol is never going to replace petroleum according to most experts as corn is not nearly as an efficent source of ethanol as sugar cane is in Brazil which uses mostly ethanol for all its autos.
    We will need to stay in the Iraq for the foreseeable future , however, a much better military strategy could make this safer for our troops and less costly for the taxpayers. Remember this all started with the fall of the Shaw of Iran and susbequently the two wars with Iraq have now lead us to one ugly situation.
    The shake up about petroleum is coming anyways. There are few and far between places the US can get it that is not unfriendly the US.

    I think the USSR helped us indirectly by being bigger and nastier than we were and if one has to choose between who to deal with... . The soviets were obvious about just plain old invading. The US was simply corruption. These days - there is no one else to be scared of other than the US. So a lot of people are standing up and saying "Hey - fuck you US!"

    Add into the game Iran, a major producer of oil, as well as their buddies Valenzuela, etc. want to start selling oil in Euros instead of dollars - that will have us borrowing money from Europe simply to buy oil. No more "free" oil/gas by means of a printing press.

    What do people do? Stack up dollars from a country up to it's eye balls in debt and 15 years of trade deficient (ie, we got little people want to buy with dollars) or trade those fuckers in for Euro's while the trading is good?

    At one time computers where literally 20 tons with 4,000 instructions available. Now they are in everyone's homes and a major part of the economy. This happened in basically twenty years.

    My analogy is, ethanol production is still in it's infancy and all the recent research says one can get 3x's as much out of switch grass (hay basically) and specially grown bacteria than the old 70's tech of corn.

    All this nonsense started long before the Shah. It is a by product of British colonialism where they drew borders right down the middle of tribal and ethnic lands. Better to have the population fighting each other than the Governor eh?

    In fact, it could be said that the US aiding in a coup to put the Shaw into power - not the fall of the Shaw - is what put the bulls eye on the US. (Google Mohammad Mossadegh - the democratically elected president thrown out by the CIA to aid in putting the Shaw into power.)

    Hell, even before that, Iran tended to side with the nazi's but the population didn't get the butt whooping consequences of that ideology yet.

    Throw in some history of one group conquering another group over the millenniums and one sees the US is a very very new player in all of this.

    The good news is that Iran is one step away from being in internal turmoil it's self. Already there are bombings in the "Islamic Republic" against the revolutionary guard and other such islamo-fascist tools. I guess when you teach people it is OK to bomb your enemies they do learn the lesson.

    I agree we need to apply pressure to some of the regimes, but I disagree with using old style government facing down government military techniques to do it. Technology has enabled one man to take down an entire building (like McVeigh) - we see a can filled with explosives with a chunk of metal penetrating armored Humvee's can be put in place by the local grocery clerk. The days of lining men up 50 yards from each other should have ended in WW I. The days of battle ships should have ended in WW II. Government to government confrontation obviously hasn't worked since then given Cuba, Korea, Vietnam... the list goes on. All of these were revolutionary wars and we all know how those worked out living in this country spawned by one.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Just as long as everyone understands that the second we leave, Iran takes over.

    I said when this stupid war started that all we were going to do was create a Shiite colony of Iran and make Iran that much more powerful. If *I* foresaw that, then you know someone in the White House did. So what's the real agenda here, y'all reckon?

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    Just as long as everyone understands that the second we leave, Iran takes over.

    I said when this stupid war started that all we were going to do was create a Shiite colony of Iran and make Iran that much more powerful. If *I* foresaw that, then you know someone in the White House did. So what's the real agenda here, y'all reckon?
    Having the sunni/wahabi based Saudi's begging our door to protect them from the Shi'ite loonies on the border?

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    So what's the real agenda here, y'all reckon?
    IMHO, several different things ...

    A. avoiding an Israeli / Arab nuclear confrontation that would act as a catalyst for the beginning of WW3

    B. Deo's theory about Uncle Sam shaking down the Saudis for 'protection' ... with a condition being that they continue to recycle their petrodollars back into the USA to keep the dollar and US economy from collapsing

    C. A waiting game regarding the Internet Information age and the human motivations of younger Arabs eventually forcing Iran, Syria, Palestine etc. to change from the inside. It's no secret that the majority of the Iranian population would throw out the current President and activist Imam ideology in a big hurry if 1) they didn't have to worry about being shot, 2) they didn't have to worry about their family being shot, and 3) if they weren't dependent on Iranian gov't subsidies. America has been playing this angle behind the scenes for quite a while now, with more than a little success at squelching US and Western European investment in Iranian oil fields and infrastructure ... which is beginning to take a heavy economic toll on Iran without the need for US sanctions on Iranian exports.



    also a concise summary ... (snip)"Iranian leaders, of course, also have good reason to be jittery, as this new Backgrounder outlines. Iran's economy relies heavily on oil revenues but energy exports are down. Production is not keeping pace with demand, requiring Iran to import 170,000 barrels of gas [refined gasoline - sic] per day—a third of its energy needs. Domestic demand, spurred on by subsidized prices at the pump and a swelling population, has skyrocketed. Iran's energy prospects look so grim that the government rolled out an unpopular new rationing plan (Weekly Standard) for consumers to curb their gasoline intake. That may be a tough pill to swallow for Iranians already struggling with double-digit inflation and unemployment.

    To be sure, energy analysts have no illusions about the nature of Iran's economy. Oil exports, which account for half the government's revenue, may dwindle to zero by 2015 without a flood of foreign investment, predicts Roger Stern of Johns Hopkins University. Iran's battered economy could be further damaged in the event of a continuing downward trend in global oil prices. Finally, there is what oil traders call the “risk premium,” writes James Surowiecki of the New Yorker; that is, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has “an economic incentive to say confrontational things that spook the oil market” and thus drive up oil prices in the short run."(snip)

    4) the REAL game actually doesn't involve rival Arab powers. As was the case in North Korea or North Vietnam, America could easily roll right through Iran and Syria and achieve real victory if she had the will to do so. But then as now the real issue involves the real powers that are backing the regional powers i.e. the Russians and the Chinese.



    IMHO the ultimate resolution will require that Western European countries make up their mind to either take an active role or relegate themselves to being held hostage by Russian oil and gas supplies as the North Sea and other local energy assets dry up. Without a Western European consensus that action must be taken, America probably can't sustain the political will to continue more or less unilaterally. If that happens, all of the 'western world' will be hostage to energy supplies that are ultimately controlled by the Russians and Chinese.

    At the moment Iran is watching it's oil and gas infrastructure fall apart and it's domestic economy along with it. Iran basically has two choices. It can either stop backing the Islamic terrorists and seek the good graces of the West to invest in its oil and gas infrastructure, or it can 'sell out' to the Russians and/or Chinese to invest in and ultimately take control over its oil and gas reserves as happened in Turkmenistan etc. And while most of the Arab fundamentalists hate the USA for backing it's arch-enemy Israel, they also have not forgotten their past experiences with the Russians.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-18-2007 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    If they declare war (cough cough - never did) then they can un-declare war.
    Blame LBJ and Congress. They gave us the tonkin gulf Resolution took it away then gave us the War Powers act. Congress wants to drive the car. This is manipulation at it's worst to put one candidate ahead of another. pig trough politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Let them kill their own. We don't need to be there with troops. This is an intelligence and "phone bomb" war. If they find a hide-out or strong hold - fucking drop some shit on them.
    HUMINT is lacking. The other thing is you can't fight a War on the Cheap and you can't fight a War while simultaneously campaigning for Sainthood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Wars should be short and harsh. We have been fucking around in Iraq since 1991 - 16 years is a little long for one loonie.
    Absolutely War should be so Goddaman awful it should be unthinkable. Don't poke America with a stick. A neutron bomb over Tehran would kill everyone with a 10,000 roentegen dose. Buildings, cars, everything else would be untouched as the People die from the inside out in under 24 hours. We keep dancing around trying to fight a War without anyone getting hurt. Monumentally stupid.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    We keep dancing around trying to fight a War without anyone getting hurt.
    a slightly off topic note, but useful for providing perspective.

    gunfire related deaths among US troops in Iraq 60 per 100,000 over last 22 months

    gunfire related deaths in Washington DC 80.6 per 100,000 in same period

    gunfire related deaths in New Orleans 100+ per 100,000 (no firm population statistics available although gun related deaths set new records)


    maybe we should be discussing 'pulling out' of DC and NoLa instead of Iraq, as it's actually less dangerous over there !!!

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    I said it 5 years ago and I say it again. If we're gonna fight the fuckers, just bomb the hell out of them and get it over with. All this pussyfooting around is only making things worse for everyone involved. ugh

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Is it time? HELL YES!

    I don't think we should have ever gone into Iraq in the first place and I never did either.

    As for the suggestion of bombing the shit out of the entire region, I don't agree with that either. Doing something like that would be nothing short of genocide and I can not fathom why anyone would support such a thing

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    there are those that would tell you that allowing nuclear weapons to be in the hands of Islamic terrorists also amounts to genocide ... for Israelis.

    there are others that would tell you that the 'American way of life' depends on the continued availability of 'cheap' middle eastern oil and also the recycling of petrodollars back into the US economy - such that if Islamic fundamentalists were allowed to assume control of Saudi and the rest of the middle east and assert their anti-American policies, within 5 years the US middle class would cease to exist and US poor would be indistinguishable from Mexican poor, Vietnamese poor etc. in terms of living standards.

    there are still others who will tell you that lower Manhattan still has a huge hole in it, and the next huge hole created by nuclear capable Islamic terrorists will be 100 times wider with 1000 times as many US civilian casualties.

    !
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-20-2007 at 04:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    there are those that would tell you that allowing nuclear weapons to be in the hands of Islamic terrorists also amounts to genocide ... for Israelis.

    there are others that would tell you that the 'American way of life' depends on the continued availability of 'cheap' middle eastern oil and also the recycling of petrodollars back into the US economy - such that if Islamic fundamentalists were allowed to assume control of Saudi and the rest of the middle east and assert their anti-American policies, within 5 years the US middle class would cease to exist and US poor would be indistinguishable from Mexican poor, Vietnamese poor etc. in terms of living standards.

    there are still others who will tell you that lower Manhattan still has a huge hole in it, and the next huge hole created by nuclear capable Islamic terrorists will be 100 times wider with 1000 times as many US civilian casualties.
    I can tell that your reply was supposed to convince me that it's ok to kill everyone in Islamic countries. It doesn't. I still don't think it's justified.

    I'm just not the type of person to wish death and destruction on millions of people because of where they live, what their skin color or which higher power they worship. It makes me sad that there are those who don't feel the same but it's part of life I guess

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    no, actually, my reply was meant to make you think 'outside the box', and to look at the situation from some different points of view - specifically from the point of view of a few million Israelis who have been threatened with nuclear annihilation by Iran's president, as well as the point of view of a few thousand Americans who have been killed in Iraq by improvised weapons produced by Iran and deployed by Iranians who snuck into Iraq ! The only death threats being made are coming from Iran, thus any military response on the part of the US military which may or may not materialize will come as a direct result of the policies and actions of Iran's leaders.

    Taking action against Iran isn't a good situation, but neither is NOT taking action against Iran.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    no, actually, my reply was meant to make you think 'outside the box', and to look at the situation from some different points of view - specifically from the point of view of a few million Israelis who have been threatened with nuclear annihilation by Iran's president, as well as the point of view of a few thousand Americans who have been killed in Iraq by improvised weapons produced by Iran and deployed by Iranians who snuck into Iraq ! The only death threats being made are coming from Iran, thus any military response on the part of the US military which may or may not materialize will come as a direct result of the policies and actions of Iran's leaders.

    Taking action against Iran isn't a good situation, but neither is NOT taking action against Iran.
    My thought process on this issue isn't limited to 'inside the box'. I am well aware of the situation with Iran and Israel. I feel the same way about that as I do about the suggestion of the U.S. military bombing the whole Islamic world to kingdom come. I think it would be a genocide.

    I already said I can't support such a thing and I don't understand why anyone else would support such an action either. It doesn't matter to me if the people who would be attacked are white, brown or purple for that matter. Neither does it matter to me what the religion is or what country it is that they were born in or where they currently live. None of that or anything else is going to make me support genocide on anyone , ever.

    Genocide is imo flat out wrong no matter who commits it or who suffers it. I can see we don't agree about that and so I don't see the purpose of further discussion between the two of us about the subject. We will just have to agree to disagree.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10 View Post
    My thought process on this issue isn't limited to 'inside the box'. I am well aware of the situation with Iran and Israel.
    Yet you choose to live in denial......... Great. You do realize what an Islamic ascension to power entails right? Heres a taste. Go to your room. Get a bed sheet. Cut out to holes for your eyes then drape it over yourself. While your cutting things don't forget to slice of your clitoris ;and cut your right hamstring so you can't run away.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10 View Post
    I feel the same way about that as I do about the suggestion of the U.S. military bombing the whole Islamic world to kingdom come. I think it would be a genocide.
    i wish I could sell tickets because every one will want to be there. What about a cruise ship in the Indian Ocean? the stroboscopic effect of multi megaton explosions would be awesome. With good sunglasses of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10 View Post
    I already said I can't support such a thing and I don't understand why anyone else would support such an action either. It doesn't matter to me if the people who would be attacked are white, brown or purple for that matter. Neither does it matter to me what the religion is or what country it is that they were born in or where they currently live. None of that or anything else is going to make me support genocide on anyone , ever.
    Except that from the earliest age they are taught hate. They want us Dead or enslaved. If it is going to be Armageddon I choose it for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10 View Post
    Genocide is imo flat out wrong no matter who commits it or who suffers it. I can see we don't agree about that and so I don't see the purpose of further discussion between the two of us about the subject. We will just have to agree to disagree.
    To the Death then. Islam first.

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Geez. I just stated my opinions like everyone else. If you don't agree with them, fine by me. No need to get nasty or tell me to go harm myself because I don't see things the same as you

    Getting told by some man here that I should have my cut my clit off simply because I disagree with previously posted comments that the U.S. should blow up all of Iran or kill every humanbeing who lives in an Islamic country ?!? I don't even know how to react to something that fucked up. I am so done with this discussion now.
    Last edited by T-10; 02-20-2007 at 10:17 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    You didn't know that is what happens to little girls in Fundamentalist Islamic countries? It is done at the onset of Puberty...... Women are for breeding.

  23. #23
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-10
    Getting told by some man here that I should have my cut my clit off simply because I disagree with previously posted comments that the U.S. should blow up all of Iran or kill every humanbeing who lives in an Islamic country ?!?
    Sarge's point was that the people you so eagerly seek to protect would not have the same sensitivity toward you. Their goal is the worldwide domination of fundamentalist Islam, with sharia law being implemented throughout the Earth. They do not want peaceful coexistence, and they're not going to drop everything and be our friends - even if we let them destroy Israel. Every time we give in, it emboldens them and encourages them to kill more.

    In their ideal world, we women WOULD be locked up, covered up in drapes, beaten, raped, and genitally mutilated. We would be denied education and even the smallest control over our own lives. That was Sarge's point.

    And whether we want war with them or not, we have it, because THEY want it. And like the Talmud says, "If your enemy comes to kill you, kill him first."

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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    A point.

    Female gential multilation is not an islamic pratice. It is a tribal practise that arose within africa and selected parts of the middle east. Some of these areas yes, were muslim. Some were christian. Some continued to worship pagan gods unknow. these practises were handed down genration to generation, often (and especially in recent decades) driven by older female members of the family believing that the "right of passage" was needed to make a woman desirable for marriage. As these groups modernised, as villages fell apart and became part of larger cities, these practises died away. Female genital mutilation today, is most commonly found in isolated villages which still live a traditional lifestle, mainly in rural Africa. As before, some of these areas follow islam, some christian teaching but the two are not interrellated.

    Secondly, Islam, like all religions, has symbolic clothing used as a distinguishing feature. The full burkha is actually particular only to wahhabism, which is the strictest from of islam and like most forms of stricter religions has overwhelmingly restrictive, conforming and partriachial overtones. please understand that islam is not a burkha wearing, bomb blowing homogenous lump. Like christianity, it has many fractured sections. The difference between anglicanism and seventh day adeventists or mormons, for instance is ENORMOUS. The headscarf (yes, just the headscarf) is worn by islamic women who CHOSE to wear it as a symbol of their religious faith-it is somethign they believe is important. Much like a nuns habbit. Or orthodox jewish men who wear skull caps, or mormon women who always cover both their knees and shoulders, or catholics who wear the cruxific or countless other recognisably religious symbols. Examples of moderate islamic nations are lebanon, egypt, Bosnia and Hertzogovina, Turkey, Malaysia, to name a few. Many other muslim women choose not to wear any symbol of their religious affiliation, just like many catholics feel it unnessary to waer a corpse dangling around their neck.

    You do your arguement a great disservice by continually refering to islam only in its most right-wing, most conservative and most restrictive form. Curbing the appeal of ANY form of extremism comes from within the moderate sphere. You wonder why fundamentalists hate "the west" so much? because they are only presented, and only chose to see the most extreme and corrupt aspects of western policy . The fact "the west" ONLY sees islam in its most extreme and corrupt form is as great a tragedy.

    Though naturally, i suppose you could just nuke anyone who isn't white.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Is it time to redeploy from Iraq?

    Xtina20,

    What a wonderful reply.


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