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    Default 'Springtime for Stalin'

    "The Bear's Lair, by Martin Hutchinson

    Springtime for Stalin
    February 26, 2007


    The high tide of globalization, free trade and capitalism, which had seemed so irresistible in the 1990s, appears to be receding, even as the world economy continues to expand. In country after country, new economic experiments are being tried which have the effect of increasing the state’s control over economic matters. Not just a general swing to the center-left in world politics, this is in some respects a springtime for Stalin, and a proof that his dream of controlling all economic activity through a juggernaut state is by no means dead.

    The normal electoral “swing of the pendulum” between two closely matched political philosophies is not something to worry about. In 1992 George H.W. Bush gave way to Bill Clinton, who in 2000 gave way to George W. Bush. We now know that 1992 did not presage a sharp move towards socialism; the Clinton health care plan never got off the ground. Similarly the 2000 election did not signal a return to free market capitalism; while Bush cut taxes initially he did nothing to rein in the growth of government spending, which quickly rebounded from its 2000 low point and continued to grow.

    Similarly in Britain the 1997 transfer from economic management by John Major and Kenneth Clarke to economic management by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown did not signal a return to 1970s socialism. Indeed Brown’s first act in office, freeing the Bank of England from Treasury control, was an act of libertarian rather than leftist ideological intent.

    Nevertheless, even in Britain and the United States, the drift towards statism over the last 20 years is considerable. Gordon Brown has increased British public spending to its highest ever level as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product, even though the economy has been generally rosy. London home ownership, too, has been priced out of the grasp of the middle classes, and concentrated among wealthy, often dubious foreigners, who by a quirk of the tax system don’t have to pay Britain’s ruinous taxes.

    State controlled health care, once anathema in the United States, is quickly becoming a reality, with Massachusetts and California leading the way, even though it is clear that the cost of such programs will be far higher than projected. Federal meddling in the provision of education has hugely increased as a result of the No Child Left Behind Act, which has had the perverse result of dumbing down previously satisfactory state testing systems. A Republican administration, with the 2003 prescription drugs legislation, has introduced the largest new entitlement program since Medicare in 1965.

    Support for freer trade in the United States has more or less collapsed. The President seems most unlikely to get his extension to fast-track negotiating authority, the Colombia and Peru free trade agreements appear moribund, and the mirage of re-starting the Doha round of trade talks has failed to materialize. This reflects the reality that support for international free trade has dropped sharply in the U.S. Even in Britain, the advocates of openness are on the defensive. Not surprising; one of the greatest successes of the left has been the effective dismantling of immigration controls in both Britain and the U.S., which has resulted in an immigrant flood far beyond previous experience, beyond also the capacity of the domestic economy to absorb without major downward pressure on wage rates. Overall, there has been a substantial erosion of voter self-confidence, and an increasing desire for government intervention to correct the unpleasant results of the market mechanism.

    The prospects for the future are statist in both countries also. The Democrats, shorn of their moderate Bill-Clintonist leanings, are leading in the run-up to 2008, and there is no fully conservative Republican candidate to oppose them with any significant chance of winning. In Britain, an electoral race between David Cameron and Gordon Brown in 2009 will be the most left-wing choice offered to the British electorate since the statist Edward Heath squared off against Harold Wilson in October 1974 – and at least in 1974 the third-party Liberals under Jeremy Thorpe had fairly free-market instincts. While no individual election in either country has moved the apparent political spectrum significantly towards greater state control, the cumulative effect of 20 years of leftwards ratchet has been to reverse most of the free market gains of the 1980s.

    However, domestic politics in Britain and the U.S. are not the only areas in which the shade of Stalin must be quietly pleased. He would particularly like his new friends in Latin America, who combine his approach to economics and some of his policing methods with a careless insouciance that is all their own. For Ecuador’s president Rafael Correa to threaten default on international debt is standard operating procedure these days in Latin America, following Argentina’s inspiring example in 2002-05. However to call in Argentine consultants, who advised him not to default yet because he wasn’t indebted enough – better borrow some more money first – is a level of chutzpah worthy of a better cause. Needless to say, serial defaults by Latin American countries, probably followed by a default by Russia – serial violator of property rights that it is – is likely to kill the international bond markets. Of course, it was Vladimir Ilich Lenin – unquestionably a role model to Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin – who said “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” Given sufficient up-front management fees, Wall Street undoubtedly would.

    Putin’s not going back to full Communism, but he doesn’t play by capitalism’s rules either. Locking up your most successful entrepreneur for 9 years in Siberia and then threatening to extend his prison term to 27 years may sound like an Enron prosecution, but unlike in the United States there aren’t a lot of other good entrepreneurs coming along to take Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s place. Instead, foreign investors have been forced out of the oil and gas industry, which is now a Kremlin-run fiefdom, turning off the spigots to its customers whenever Putin fells it appropriate. That will work fine while oil and gas prices remain high, but one day they will fall, and it will then be obvious that Russia has become the energy supplier of last resort, regarded as a somewhat less reliable business partner than Nigeria. Again, Stalin would approve; output is maintained and power has been concentrated at the center.

    China is held out as a beacon of capitalist hope for the world, a sign that free market methods can penetrate even a nominally Communist country and raise the living standards of its inhabitants. However, in the long run China is nothing of the kind. With at least $1 trillion of bad loans in its banking system, and a stock market driven to frenzy by the speculative juices of its domestic savers, China is a runaway train running at full speed towards a very nasty cliff. Once the banking system runs out of domestic deposits -- assuming Wall Street cannot be persuaded to carry on investing sufficient new capital to bail it out – the entire system will suffer a massive liquidity crunch. At that point, no doubt Argentine consultants will be called in, which could get very expensive indeed for the world’s capital markets. The Chinese government will suffer massive loss of face, which it will only recover by investing the country’s entire $1 trillion of foreign reserves in an armaments program.

    India too looks like a capitalist country, until you realize that it is being run by a Five Year Plan, just as Stalin would have wanted. The new Five Year Plan postulates economic growth of 9% over the next five years, and has many exciting ways in which government can spend the revenues that this 9% growth will generate. If the growth fails to materialize, and the revenues aren’t generated, government will maintain its planned spending and increase its dominance of the economy – the fall-back answer to everything. At least India’s unlikely to choose global warfare if things go wrong, which is a blessing.

    Thailand last September rebelled against the free-market and rural-oriented policies of elected prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and staged a military coup. Since then the military government has shown itself thoroughly unversed in the nuances of the free market, imposing exchange controls for a day before reversing itself and now threatening to seize the telephone company Shin Corporation from Singapore’s Temasek Holdings, simply because it had previously been owned by Thaksin. Putin, if not Stalin, would approve of the new Thai government’s approach to foreign investment.

    Japan’s a counterexample – it is actually reducing its government deficit and even modestly reducing government’s share of output. Naturally, Western economists are denouncing the Japanese government for this, forecasting that the country will fall back into recession due to lack of Keynesian stimulus. If current prime minister Shinzo Abe lasts, Japan may provide a modest force against the Stalinist trend, but his opinion poll numbers are already slipping.

    It’s not clear why this Stalinist springtime is burgeoning so rapidly, when all had thought history dead and the world destined for a bright future of moderate globalized capitalism. My guess is that, as with so many disasters, the fault is in the monetary system, and that interest rates worldwide, too low for too long, have concentrated wealth in the hands of speculators while leaving non-speculators disgruntled and ready to listen to economically crazed solutions to their problems. As I have written before, tight money rewards savers and long term thinkers, and discourages the speculative and the fly-by-night; loose money does the opposite.

    Whatever the cause, the rebirth of statist, economically damaging policies is yet another reason why the long term future appears to belong to the Bears. "

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    MELONIE- Great timing ! You posted this one day before the Chinese stock market crashed and the Dow went down 400 points. I am impressed.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    come on, even on a 3.5% drop day for the Dow Industrials this is overblown. To call leftism, Stalinism is way, way over the top. i don't think the world is on the verge of purges and famines.
    Except for South America, there's no widespread tilt toward the left.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    come on, even on a 3.5% drop day for the Dow Industrials this is overblown. To call leftism, Stalinism is way, way over the top. i don't think the world is on the verge of purges and famines.
    Except for South America, there's no widespread tilt toward the left.
    I agree.

    It's nothing but "Red Scare" stuff and we all know how well that went last time around. Anyone remember ?

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Shame about McCarthy. He really was onto something. Hollywood won. Sad really.

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    By the end of 1953, McCarthy had altered the "twenty years of treason" catch-phrase he had coined for the preceding Democratic administrations and began referring to "twenty one years of treason." to include Eisenhower's first year in office.
    He insulted presidents, he insulted the Senate. Yes, he was over the top. Roosevelt, Truman, and Eisenhower were not "treasonous."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Shame about McCarthy. He really was onto something. Hollywood won. Sad really.
    Oh yeah, great times those were Maybe a little history lesson is in order. Here are some a tid bits from my earlier link.

    'Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment, destruction of their careers, and even imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts that would later be overturned, laws that would later be declared unconstitutional'

    'The FBI engaged in a number of illegal practices in its pursuit of information on Communists, including burglaries, opening mail and illegal wiretaps.[21]'

    'Suspected homosexuality was also a common cause for being targeted by McCarthyism'

    'Since the time of McCarthy, the word "McCarthyism" has entered American speech as a general term for a variety of distasteful practices: aggressively questioning a person's patriotism, making poorly supported accusations, using accusations of disloyalty to pressure a person to adhere to conformist politics or to discredit an opponent, subverting civil rights in the name of national security and the use of demagoguery are all often referred to as McCarthyism.'

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    the topic of the article was increasing gov't intervention / control in present / future economic issues. (snip)"In country after country, new economic experiments are being tried which have the effect of increasing the state’s control over economic matters. Not just a general swing to the center-left in world politics, this is in some respects a springtime for Stalin, and a proof that his dream of controlling all economic activity through a juggernaut state is by no means dead."(snip)

    I have a bit of difficulty understanding how that topic migrated to Joe McCarthy and homophobia !

    I also have more than a bit of difficulty understanding how the myriad of examples provided in Mr. Hutchinson's article can be denied ... Putin did shut off natural gas to Western Europe via Belarus, Hugo Chavez is kicking out foreign energy companies (and nationalizing their previous investments), the US congress is talking about enacting 27% tariffs on imported Chinese products plus tax increases on the 'rich' (translated to mean tax increases on the US middle class with the 'rich' still enjoying their loopholes), Thailand did tank their own stock market via new capital control laws (which, fortunately, they mostly reversed the following day but nonetheless provided an example of how easy it is to enact such laws), everybody is talking about a 'carbon tax', etc.

    The most recent event of course (and the one that Mr. Hutchinson predicted correctly) is that foreign investors in China are waking up to their actual financial risks in a free market economy that only 'looks' free, and appear to be pulling their money out and running for the border before the Chinese gov't decides to 'pull a Thailand' and enact new laws which would prevent them from repatriating their investment capital to avoid the bankrupting of Chinese banks (which are sitting on a trillion dollars worth of bad loans that the Chinese gov't won't allow the Chinese banks to call). This is arguably the catalyst that is prompting worldwide declines in stock markets, and the repatriation of foreign investment capital back into US gov't bonds.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-28-2007 at 02:37 AM.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Army Sgt. -There were Commies in the State Dept. but McCarthy did NOT have a clue WHO they were. Neither did Hoover. All they did was generate national hysteria and cause the existing moles to cover their tracks and watch their backs.The revisionist garbage put out by Ann Coulter (and her ilk) trying to rehabilitate the reputations of McCarthy ( a clumsy, reckless, alcoholic boob ) and Hoover ( a homophobic, cross-dressing, racist incompetent - well, he WAS a very good blackmailer. ) would be amusing if not so pathetic for its factual delinquency.

    Space Cadet- Leftism IS Stalinism. Government control of the economy leads to loss of economic freedom which leads to the loss of political freedom resulting in the loss of personal freedom. Exhibit A is Putin's Russia. Don't his tactics smack of Stalinism.? Exhibit B is Chavez in Venezuela. Let's not let that cute Citco campaign aided and abetted by "useful idiots" like Joe Kennedy blind us to the fact that Chavez is a leftist dictator like his idol Fidel who is doing everything he can to consolidate personal political power in himself and suppress the opposition by denying them media access and threatening nationalization, not to mention the thug tactics of his supporters.

    As usual, many of you missed the point of MELONIE's post.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 02-28-2007 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    As usual, many of you missed the point of MELONIE's post.
    NO, I read and got Melonies point quite well. Invasive Governmental controls of markets and economy only have the effect of stifling the same or destroying them. No shit. She and I are the Right Wing Minority here. Myself being Libertarian and Melonie having her own voting habits. I have seen with my own eyes traveling in Bulgaria the Evil that is Leftist ideals. A Country ruined sited so well for International trade.

    McCarthy was on the right track, just went about it all wrong. In my not so humble opinion. Believe me I will be the first to crucify him for attacks on civil Liberties. However I I know there are folks that want nothing more than the fall of the US. From the inside. The old KGB propaganda office is still functioning and supporting elements here in the US in education and the Media to destroy this Republic. The Communists took a long term Generational approach. Investigators were and have been looking for right now, immediate affect attempts at subversion. History books are a good example. Read a current and a 40 year old history book on Colonial America.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I have a bit of difficulty understanding how that topic migrated to Joe McCarthy and homophobia !
    You compare people to Stalin and then you have 'difficulty understanding' why people would bring up Joe McCarthy..... LOL

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    Which textbook do you think would be the more factually accurate ? The current one or the one written 40 years ago ? This is NOT the thread to discuss the pollution of historical and other textbooks by advocates from both left and right. It's been going on since the beginning of written history.

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    dlabtot- Who DOES Putin remind you of ? Churchill ? Clinton ? Some of his tactics ARE sadly reminiscent of Stalin.

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    I think I understand why there is no political board.

    To call increasing control of the economy by the government, Stalinist is way over the top. Especially in democratic countries. Sweden's government plays a much larger role in its economy than the US, but once again to call it Stalinist is absurd. Gandhi preached a socialist economic model, he is not Stalinist.

    I'm guessing Melonie is looking from the point of an investor at this moment in time, but big picture the world ain't doing too badly.

    China= to complain after 30 years of huge economic growth seems petty, even after yesterday
    India = more capitalist than any point in its modern history. Considering its last economic liberalizations occurred when the government was running out of money in the early 90's, sometimes failure is a good thing
    Thailand = if the biggest economic complaint about a country is they are trying (and I believe failed) to put time restrictions on foreign money flows, it can't be too bad
    Russia = well wait for oil prices to fall. Unless I'm missing something the oil shutoffs don't seem like that of a big deal to me. They are trying to get world gas/oil prices. They even cut off a political ally, Belorussia's oil off.

    ... too many countries in the world.

    US= yes, new entitlements, I'm sure there are things to complain about, but nothing that new or different from where I'm sitting (Nothing on springtime for Stalin scale)

    In most places on this planet the path to wealth is usually associated with free markets.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    I'm guessing Melonie is looking from the point of an investor at this moment in time, but big picture the world ain't doing too badly.
    Therein lies the author's true point, that increasing gov't intervention in the economies of these various countries are allowing things to 'look good' from the outside at the expense of massive 'dry rot' taking place on the inside. I don't mean to set off a political battle, but it was Stalin who became famous for his '5 year plans' that allowed the USSR to appear very successful economically to the rest of the world ... for a little while ... if you didn't look at any details. That 'apparent' success was due to borrowed money that would never be repaid ( think China's trillion dollars worth of bad business loans from 'Western' investors = their entire US trade surplus), exploitation of workers in terms of labor and safety (think just about anywhere in Asia except Japan), supplying grossly subsidized low priced raw materials and energy to industries (China again) ...

    In most places on this planet the path to wealth is usually associated with free markets
    Actually, in today's world the path to wealth is usually associated with gov't regulations that guarantee a profit !

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    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    I'm guessing Melonie is looking from the point of an investor at this moment in time, but big picture the world ain't doing too badly.
    No, she is looking from the point of view of someone trying to goad people with flamebait.

    It's pretty pathetic, actually.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    and this post of yours wasn't intended as flamebait I suppose ...


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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    I guess like so many things, flamebait is in the eye of the beholder.

    Did I call the people who disagree with my viewpoint Stalinists, fascists, etc?

    No, I simply posted a flowchart that could either be appreciated for what it is, or be discussed.

    If you consider it flamebait, by all means flame away.

    If you want to defend the actions of George W. Bush, go for it: speak up and make your case.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    dlabtot- First of all, YOU have to be commended for never " taking the bait" and responding when challenged. When YOUR facts or assumptions are called into question your response is not to respond at all.

    SpaceCadet- Afaik the Political Poo forum was discontinued because too many posters confused disagreement with personal attack. There is nothing wrong with spirited and even passionate discourse so long as it doesn't degenerate into name-calling and the like. JMHO.
    One person's "socialism" is another's " backdoor to "Stalinism". Imo when you give gov't control over the economy, when you stifle individualism in favor of the current interpretation of the "collective good" it can often be difficult to maintain personal freedom, including cherished liberties such as freedom of expression.Did you know that in Sweden ( it always seems to come around to talking about
    SWEDEN ; next week can't it be Denmark ? ) it is a CRIME for a Lutheran minister to cite Bible verses that condemn homosexual behavior ? First of all, I'm devoutly irreligious ( I don't believe in religion, period ) and secondly I couldn't care less what gays do or don't and it doesn't matter one whit to me whether or not they get married, or adopt, serve in the military etc. etc. My point is that even in a socialist democracy tolerance is imperfect. Sweden's current REAL unemployment rate is anywhere from 10 to 20 % depending on whom you talk to and whose figures and analysis you find preferable. Of all Europeans surveyed Swedes are the MOST likely to take a sick day and LEAST likely to start their own business.

    Many economic historians agree that India's decades of economic retardation were as a direct result of adopting the Gandhi/Nehru socialist model and that their current economic success is occurring in spite of Indian gov't policy i.e. private enterprise is years ahead of the gov't curve. Many Indians are effectively thumbing their noses at gov't policy and just going ahead and starting their own businesses, especially in the high-tech sector.

    I honestly don't know enough about the current Thai situation to opine.

    China's problems are as great as her successes. Parts of China are booming while most of the countryside remains mired in poverty as a direct result of Mao's disastrous Great Leap Forward which over-industrialized while neglecting agriculture and traditional crafts and trades at which the Chinese were historically rather good and which COULD have formed the basis for many a small enterprise.
    Couple that with horrendous pollution, slave labor and major corruption from the very top all the way down to the village and street level plus the GROWING income inequalities ( they are still not building a large stable middle class ) and China is far from an overwhelming success. Two MAJOR reasons are too much gov't control and lack of political and personal freedom.

    Russia is STILL a glorified "hunter-gatherer" economy as they were in the 80's being almost totally dependent on oil and mineral extraction. They have done little to modernize their industrial base which lags far behind many 3rd World countries- Brazil and China, just to name 2. Add in the corruption and Putin's use of Russia's oil and gas to blackmail other European countries. Then you look at the growing power of the Russian Intelligence apparatus ( whatever they're calling the modern versions of the old KGB & GRU ) including assassinations on foreign soil ( Stalin had Trotsky killed in Mexico ) and you have what some of us feel justified in calling a "Stalinist" type model. Putin has spent years consolidating political power in himself a la Stalin and has been imprisoning ( and perhaps even killing ) his rivals and critics.Again, all too reminiscent of good old Uncle Joe.

    As far as the U.S. is concerned I think it's ridulously hyperbolic to say that we're slip-sliding down the path to Stalinism, It IS fair to say that if Edwards, Hillary or Obama get their way that we'd accelerate our progression to European style "social democracy" with much higher taxation, new social programs (and the expansion of existing ones) and increased gov't control and regulation INCLUDING
    gov't regulation and control of POLITICAL speech. McCain-Feingold was just the start for many of these folks. Some would like to regulate Fox News and "hush Rush" IF they get the chance.

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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    if there is any serious thought that this week's worldwide stock market dive was the result of 'free market' forces rather than gov't intervention / control of it's own economy ...

    (snip)"For the past few months, the [Chinese - sic] government has been working to drive down this speculative investing. On Feb. 26, China's State Council launched a new "special task force" that accurately could be referred to as the "get-those-idiots-to-stop-borrowing-to-gamble-on-the-stock-exchanges" team. Its express goal is to get the Chinese domestic security brokers to lay off such speculative decision-making, while also putting a crimp in the source of the [Chinese gov't - sic] subsidized capital.

    Day one started by the script, and Beijing is likely quite pleased with the way things are going (or at least it was until its actions unintentionally triggered a global meltdown). Also, since the Shanghai exchange is actually still up 3 percent for the past week despite suffering its largest drop in a decade, the State Council probably hopes for more drops in the days ahead.

    What it Triggered

    But the rest of the world took a different lesson. Why the Chinese stock crash occurred was unimportant to the outside world, only that it did -- and that it affected everyone else.

    For the first time, China has become the trendsetter in the global stock community. Normally, the U.S. exchanges -- especially the S&P 500 index and the Dow Jones Industrial Average -- set the tone for global trading patterns. Not on Feb. 27. This time, China led Asia to a wretched day. The wider the contagion spread, the more margin calls were forced to be called in. (If an account's value falls below a minimum required level, the broker will issue a margin call for the account holder to either deposit more cash or sell securities to fix the problem.)

    As the drops snowballed, Europe filed in dutifully behind, mixing the China malaise with its own nervousness about overextended markets in Central Europe and the former Soviet Union. By the time markets opened in the United States -- where investors already were fretting about the subprime mortgage markets -- the only question remaining was how far U.S. markets would descend. In the end, the Dow dropped by the most since the fall triggered by the 9/11 attacks.

    So why has this not happened before now? As China's market capitalization has increased, its links to the global system have increased apace. These links have developed very quickly, and with few controls. The Shanghai exchange, for example, more than tripled in total value in 2006 to more than $900 billion -- and much of the rapid-fire initial public offerings (IPOs) of Chinese banks on the Hong Kong and other international exchanges are not included in that little factoid. Indeed, China's mainland exchanges are only the tip of the iceberg -- and they certainly do not include foreign firms that are heavily invested in the mainland.

    Two years ago, China's market capitalization was too small for its problems to impact the global system. Now, between ridiculous foreign subscriptions to IPOs, irresponsible corporate policies and irrational valuations all around, that capitalization is to a level -- around $1.3 trillion -- where its integration with the global system via funds and margins makes China a sizable chunk of the international financial landscape. The insulation that once protected international exchanges from Chinese policies is gone, which makes the international system more vulnerable to Chinese crashes.

    Feb. 28 and Beyond

    Follow-on crashes can come from one of three places.

    First, the Chinese believe their exchanges are massively overvalued (hence the engineered crash). They will do this again, and are not (yet) particularly concerned with the international consequences. China planned to dampen its own stock market, not the world's markets. Along with the rest of the world, Beijing did not expect the contagion effect to be so extreme. Yet, for now at least, China's own exchanges are its primary concern, and it will act according to that belief."(snip) from the free version of John Maudlin's newsletter

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Protectionism and socialisation of medicine are a long way from amounting to Stalinism.

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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    flickad- We did not get to our current sorry state ( of too much government which we can't afford ) overnight. It took decades of one government program piled
    on top of another.

    Btw, how "protectionist" is Australia ? I'm asking because I don't know.

    How's the medical system ? If it's anything like Britain's , Canada's and Sweden's there must be a lot of Aussies going to India & Thailand for elective surgery rather than wait months to be treated. In Canada people wait months for by-pass operations. In Sweden many people go to POLAND ! for hip replacements and ROUTINE dental care.

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    flickad- We did not get to our current sorry state ( of too much government which we can't afford ) overnight. It took decades of one government program piled
    on top of another.

    Btw, how "protectionist" is Australia ? I'm asking because I don't know.

    How's the medical system ? If it's anything like Britain's , Canada's and Sweden's there must be a lot of Aussies going to India & Thailand for elective surgery rather than wait months to be treated. In Canada people wait months for by-pass operations. In Sweden many people go to POLAND ! for hip replacements and ROUTINE dental care.
    Australia has free trade agreements with several countries, including yours, though I'm not sure trade's completely free under them. Between the States, trade is absolutely free as mandated by the Commonwealth Constitution.

    We have socialised medicine. I know that means there's a delay for elective surgery in public hospitals, but I'm not sure it's months. I also haven't heard reports of mass exodus overseas for medical treatment (though some do go to Thailand for cheaper cosmetic surgery), however we do have a private healthcare system alongside the public one. People with private health insurance do not have the Medicare levy taken out of their tax, since they do not use the public system.

    Despite its imperfections, socialised medicine in my view is an extremely worthwhile endeavor. It means that the poor don't have to suffer untreated health problems and everyone can get the medications they need (thanks to the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme). If it weren't for socialised medicine, I would have been unable to afford my prescribed anti-virals when I had shingles last month (full cost:$150), let alone see a doctor to get them, and I would have suffered the full-blown effects of what can be an incredibly devastating illness. Most Australians are in favour of everyone, rich or poor, receiving necessary medical care. In fact, the conservative party here has lost elections in the past due to a public perception that they would dismantle the Medicare system. The current conservative government, eleven years in, has still not dared to touch it (nor has it ceded to US requests to dismantle the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme so as to allow free trade in pharmaceuticals), such would be the public backlash.


    EDIT- My point was nothing to do with the effects, negative or otherwise, of protectionism or socialised medicine. It was merely to point out that to refer to them as Stalinist is to grossly exaggerate. It is possible to be a protectionist CAPITALIST country with socialised medicine, you know. Stalinism is an extremely authoritarian form of Communism involving far more elements than just free pills and less-than-free trade.
    Last edited by flickad; 03-24-2007 at 09:57 PM.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    ^^^ true in broad strokes, but this thread was originally posted with the purely ECONOMIC precepts of Stalinist USSR seemingly proliferating into the economies of many countries today as the topic of discussion.

    As to the 'debate' on the virtues of socialized medicine, for a fact thousands of Australian doctors / Canadian doctors have emigrated since it's large scale implementation. In fact, the whole Thailand free market medical development trend is arguably the direct result of the large scale implementation of socialized medicine in many countries, which makes medical practice in a socialized medicine country far less profitable for talented young doctors. Allowing two generations of socialized medicine to exert it's real world influences pretty much guarantees a shortage of 'homegrown' doctors once 'pre-socialized medicine' doctors retire, thus guaranteeing a 'shortage' of medical care (regardless of whether it is provided 'for free').

    Stalin of course discovered this real world problem too - and dealt with it by closing the border to the emigration of doctors, scientists, researchers etc. So far the socialized medicine countries have dealt with the problem via another means ... importing foreign doctors, scientists, researchers etc. from third world countries who are 'used' to working on a much lower pay scale. However, this is not infinitely sustainable.

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    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Springtime for Stalin'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ true in broad strokes, but this thread was originally posted with the purely ECONOMIC precepts of Stalinist USSR seemingly proliferating into the economies of many countries today as the topic of discussion.

    As to the 'debate' on the virtues of socialized medicine, for a fact thousands of Australian doctors / Canadian doctors have emigrated since it's large scale implementation. In fact, the whole Thailand free market medical development trend is arguably the direct result of the large scale implementation of socialized medicine in many countries, which makes medical practice in a socialized medicine country far less profitable for talented young doctors. Allowing two generations of socialized medicine to exert it's real world influences pretty much guarantees a shortage of 'homegrown' doctors once 'pre-socialized medicine' doctors retire, thus guaranteeing a 'shortage' of medical care (regardless of whether it is provided 'for free').

    Stalin of course discovered this real world problem too - and dealt with it by closing the border to the emigration of doctors, scientists, researchers etc. So far the socialized medicine countries have dealt with the problem via another means ... importing foreign doctors, scientists, researchers etc. from third world countries who are 'used' to working on a much lower pay scale. However, this is not infinitely sustainable.
    Isn't the word 'Stalinist' a little extreme when referring to what are essentially socialist-style economic reforms? The very use of the word in this context suggests scare-mongering and exaggeration. A comparable example would be to use the word 'Nazi' for any changes bordering on the conservative. The language is hugely suggestive of real prejudice.

    The truth is that all policies must be paid for in some way or other. Both socialised and non-socialised systems of medicine carry their costs. It's just a question of which price you want to pay. Do you want to leave huge numbers left without essential health care or would you rather be dealing with the costs of the program and a possible talent shortage (though I've noticed no shortage of good doctors here, possible partly due to the existence of a private system alongside a government subsidised one)? To me the choice is clear.

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