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Thread: Gobsmacked!

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    Default Gobsmacked!

    Oh Christ Gobsmacked is a good expression for this.................... rendered otherwise speechless...............



    Some Seattle school children are being told to be skeptical of private property rights. This lesson is being taught by banning Legos.

    A ban was initiated at the Hilltop Children's Center in Seattle. According to an article in the winter 2006-07 issue of "Rethinking Schools" magazine, the teachers at the private school wanted their students to learn that private property ownership is evil.

    According to the article, the students had been building an elaborate "Legotown," but it was accidentally demolished. The teachers decided its destruction was an opportunity to explore "the inequities of private ownership." According to the teachers, "Our intention was to promote a contrasting set of values: collectivity, collaboration, resource-sharing, and full democratic participation."

    The children were allegedly incorporating into Legotown "their assumptions about ownership and the social power it conveys." These assumptions "mirrored those of a class-based, capitalist society -- a society that we teachers believe to be unjust and oppressive."

    They claimed as their role shaping the children's "social and political understandings of ownership and economic equity ... from a perspective of social justice."

    So they first explored with the children the issue of ownership. Not all of the students shared the teachers' anathema to private property ownership. "If I buy it, I own it," one child is quoted saying. The teachers then explored with the students concepts of fairness, equity, power, and other issues over a period of several months.

    At the end of that time, Legos returned to the classroom after the children agreed to several guiding principles framed by the teachers, including that "All structures are public structures" and "All structures will be standard sizes." The teachers quote the children:

    "A house is good because it is a community house."

    "We should have equal houses. They should be standard sizes."

    "It's important to have the same amount of power as other people over your building."

    Given some recent history in Washington state with respect to private property protections, perhaps this should not come as a surprise. Municipal officials in Washington have long known how to condemn one person's private property and sell it to another for the "public use" of private economic development. Even prior to the U.S. Supreme Court's 2005 ruling in Kelo v. City of New London, Connecticut, which sanctioned such a use of eminent domain, Washington state officials acting under their state constitution were already proceeding full speed ahead with such transactions.

    Officials in Bremerton, for example, condemned a house where a widow had lived for 55 years so her property could be used for a car lot, according to the Institute for Justice. And Seattle successfully condemned nine properties and turned them over to a private developer for retail shops and hotel parking, IJ reports. Attempts to do the same thing in Vancouver (for mixed use development) and Lakewood (for an amusement park) failed for reasons unrelated to property confiscation issues.

    The court's ruling in Kelo, however, whetted municipal condemnation appetites even further. The Institute for Justice reports 272 takings for private use are pending or threatened in the state as of last summer. It's unclear if Legos will be targeted. But given what's being taught in some schools, perhaps it's just a matter of time.

    Maureen Martin ([email protected]), an attorney, is senior fellow for legal affairs at The Heartland Institute, a nonprofit organization based in Chicago that promotes free-market solutions to social and economic problems.

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    I actually don't get the problem with this...
    It's a private school.
    They are teaching community values.
    They are teaching children to question innate assumptions on ownership (oh no! Children could be critically thinking! Stop them! Children shouldn't develop the skills to question the system. That means... they might do it as adults!) and what constitutes ownership (as anyone who ever studies philosophy, law or history will do).
    The is no shortage of the dominant point of view in the children's lives (If I bought it I own it is not exactly a marginalized viewpoint).
    Finally you would have to be incredibly dense to the viewpoint they are suggesting to the children to suggest that they are advocating or would advocate appropriation of private property for the purpose of "private economic development". There is zero connection there.

    I mean, I would understand parents wanting to educate their children elsewhere, or further instructing their children on the matter but this is not really shocking - I mean who wasn't taught to share with their friends in pre-school?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    It's a private school.
    They are teaching community values.

    But they aren't teaching their kids the values that the original poster wants them to teach... and certainly HE, not the parents, should be the one who decides what to teach their children, right?

    I wonder what the actual article says... all we have is spin from Maureen Martin, not that article itself... I'm not gonna spend $5 to read it though.....

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot View Post
    I wonder what the actual article says... all we have is spin from Maureen Martin, not that article itself... I'm not gonna spend $5 to read it though.....
    Me neither. We may take this blurb as an indication.
    As they watched their elementary-age students playing with Legos, Ann Pelo and Kendra Pelojoaquin saw some disturbing trends.

    In the current issue they describe how some kids hoarded the "best" pieces, denied their classmates any access at all to the pretend town they were building, and displayed other undesirable behavior surrounding ownership and the social power it conveys.

    So the teachers banned Legos, and worked with the kids to surface the issues raised by the ways they had been using the popular building blocks.
    Not really particularly desirable behaviour amongst pre schoolers in a class room, regardless of your political beliefs.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    I'm almost tempted, cuz my girlfriend is a second grade teacher in a private school and a huge LEGO fan.... I can't imagine this happening in her classroom, though.... she'd have the wherewithal to head off the undesirable behavior before it got to that point, methinks...

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot View Post
    But they aren't teaching their kids the values that the original poster wants them to teach...
    Maybe he prefers kids learn these values instead?

    'some kids hoarded the "best" pieces, denied their classmates any access at all to the pretend town they were building, and displayed other undesirable behavior surrounding ownership and the social power it conveys.'

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    At the end of that time, Legos returned to the classroom after the children agreed to several guiding principles framed by the teachers, including that "All structures are public structures" and "All structures will be standard sizes." The teachers quote the children:

    "A house is good because it is a community house."

    "We should have equal houses. They should be standard sizes."

    "It's important to have the same amount of power as other people over your building."


    Hmmmmm this is the coercion I find offensive. Taking away the childrens toys. Live Marxism and you can have your toys back. It is a private school so this may be what the parents desired. It's Washington. I just find it wrong their punishing Children for not being good Communists. Not just for Universities anymore apparently.

    I would hope that at the College / University level that students are aware they are being coerced. That they will do they schoolwork in the manner the teacher desires to get their grade and move on. These are preschoolers nice malleable little puppets that can be molded and shaped before their Parents come to know what their Children have been taught.

    Last edited by ArmySGT.; 03-01-2007 at 12:32 PM. Reason: typing

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    So it's really true - you actually do feel that it is your business to tell other people how to raise their own children.... wow...how do you feel about it when other people tell YOU how to raise YOUR kids?

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    See it is one thing to teach Children to share. We were all taught by our parents to share. It is quite another for an Authority to punish then remove from your possesion to force sharing. Agree to these Marxist principles and you can have toys, if not no toy. Yuck.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT.;989577[I
    ][/I] Hmmmmm this is the coercion I find offensive. Taking away the childrens toys. Live Marxism and you can have your toys back. It is a private school so this may be what the parents desired. It's Washington. I just find it wrong their punishing Children for not being good Communists. Not just for Universities anymore apparently.
    Why? I mean, you realize that it applies only to lego houses right? That they are not being forced to sell their parents homes? I mean, outside of the fact that you disagree with the mandate of the class (which is fine; you don't have to send your kids there), why is this mandate particularly troubling? Again, it's not like they are being cloistered and forbidden access to the outside world. They are aware and experience capitalism every day.

    I would hope that at the College / University level that students are aware they are being coerced. That they will do they schoolwork in the manner the teacher desires to get their grade and move on. These are preschoolers nice malleable little puppets that can be molded and shaped before their Parents come to know what their Children have been taught.
    Oh, you're just bolstering your position by implying that the parents don't know how the children are being taught, because it is hard to characterize what they are being taught as bad if we're not going to jump on a train to burn the red devils. They published an article on it. They are proud and happy about the lesson they have taught. They are not doing it and then telling the children to be quiet about it. And yes, children are taught according to certain ideologies. There is no ideology free teaching. But outside of the fact that you disagree with this, why, exactly, is it bad? They aren't teaching violence, discrimination, illegal behaviour or hatred. What is the problem with teaching them to be "good little communists" and questioning the tenets of property ownership? I mean why is asking "why" when one buys things one owns them such a problem for you? Why, indeed, is it preferable to allow our little malleable puppet children to mindlessly adopt the idea economic elitism is natural and right? What the school is doing is critical - it is allowing the children and giving them the tools to question the world around them. It is the opposite of brainwashing.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    ^ don't you get it? Parents shouldn't be allowed to teach their children anything that ArmySGT disagrees with. It's that simple.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    See it is one thing to teach Children to share. We were all taught by our parents to share. It is quite another for an Authority to punish then remove from your possesion to force sharing. Agree to these Marxist principles and you can have toys, if not no toy. Yuck.
    But... a common punishment for all anti social and bad behaviour is to take away toys (and that's ignoring the simple fact that they did not take away all the toys - just the one contentious one - they clearly weren't exacting a totalitarian punishment). Like "Jenny, if you cannot share the building blocks, you can't play with them". That has nothing to do with Marxism. That is just basic ECE. By that rationale every daycare and school in the world and a hefty majority of parents are raising communists.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    ArmySgt. It's a PRIVATE school. The parents of these kids are the only ones with a beef afaic and that's IF they want one. Were this to happen in a PUBLIC school ( and the same or similar sometimes does ) that would be a different matter.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ArmySgt. It's a PRIVATE school. The parents of these kids are the only ones with a beef afaic and that's IF they want one. Were this to happen in a PUBLIC school ( and the same or similar sometimes does ) that would be a different matter.
    I understand it is a Private School.... I reiterated this once. Curious with the rising costs of private education do the Parents of these Children live by the tenets expressed by the Teachers as good? In Community houses of Standard size sharing Power over the House equally. This was not a lesson in Sharing....... Really. It is about Collectivism. That concept really has killed millions.

    Yes it is a Private School and if (?) that is what the Parents wanted fine. I am just pissed that I am going to be working twice as long to pay for the Social benefits that these kids will feel entitled to when they become adults. Adults unable to function in society.

    I would be even more shocked and probably very angry if it was Public school.

    I strongly disagree with Capitalism is bad (take away toys), Marxism is good (return toys) ............ The Stick or the Carrot.

    Teacher can I play with my Legos??.... Whack! Whack! Whack!

    Great Leader! The Proletariat desires to collectively share in the amusements provided by the State. may we begin? (Pat on the Head, Legos given).

    That wasn't a lesson in Sharing, or Citizenship..... it was a lesson in bowing to authority and surrendering all for the good of the Collective.

    God Damn it. We are Human beings not fucking termites.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    ...They are teaching children to question innate assumptions on ownership (oh no! Children could be critically thinking! Stop them! Children shouldn't develop the skills to question the system. That means... they might do it as adults!),,,
    Re: questioning the system, does that include questioning whether federal, state and local governments should be able to tax them or not once they reach adulthood? I've often wondered if those with the "Question Authority" T-shirts and bumper stickers would be willing to explore this particular question as thoroughly as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT
    ...That wasn't a lesson in Sharing, or Citizenship..... it was a lesson in bowing to authority and surrendering all for the good of the Collective.,,,
    I'm not sure if the following fits in with your point in this thread as the OP, but on my old Mac, I have two hard drives. One drive has Mac OS X. The other has a PowerPC version of Linux.

    Mac OS X is a commercial product which I had to purchase. The version of Linux, otho, was simply downloaded from one of the internet mirrors and an installation CD was burned. It's available on the internet as a "public good." The difference, I guess, is the programmers and others who created and maintain this particular version of Linux do so voluntarily. They are not forced to do this work by any government or other authority.

    Anyway, here is a link which I believe, does illustrates the concept you oppose

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=13962

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusZ View Post
    Re: questioning the system, does that include questioning whether federal, state and local governments should be able to tax them or not once they reach adulthood? I've often wondered if those with the "Question Authority" T-shirts and bumper stickers would be willing to explore this particular question as thoroughly as possible.
    I don't understand the question. Are you asking me if children or adults should be able to question government taxation? Of course they should. But you seem to think you are suggesting something really sinister, so maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

    Mac OS X is a commercial product which I had to purchase. The version of Linux, otho, was simply downloaded from one of the internet mirrors and an installation CD was burned. It's available on the internet as a "public good." The difference, I guess, is the programmers and others who created and maintain this particular version of Linux do so voluntarily. They are not forced to do this work by any government or other authority.
    Nobody is forcing the little children into positive covenants of service. Although, again, in school it is perfectly normal to make children do all kinds of things. They are not being forced to build things with the lego. They are not being told that they HAVE to participate in the game (although, again - I wasn't given options about lots of things when I was in school. I was "forced" in no uncertain terms to go inside, to go outside, prohibited from going to the bathroom during class times, told to learn math, spelling, told to be quiet, told to speak up etc., etc. By comparison, "If you are playing with the lego, everyone gets to play and all the houses have to be equally sized" seems pretty gentle and friendly). They are simply being told that they cannot horde the lego, and using that lesson to extend it into the world that large. You may not love the politics, and that is fine - a lot of people don't. But that is a far cry from declaring it to be some kind of social evil, and if you look at the school's website and even their handling of this situation, it is significantly less totalitarian than the way most schools would handle the situation.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusZ View Post
    Re: questioning the system, does that include questioning whether federal, state and local governments should be able to tax them or not once they reach adulthood? I've often wondered if those with the "Question Authority" T-shirts and bumper stickers would be willing to explore this particular question as thoroughly as possible.
    You can't really get more politically incorrect than anarchism....

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaedrusZ View Post
    I'm not sure if the following fits in with your point in this thread as the OP, but on my old Mac, I have two hard drives. One drive has Mac OS X. The other has a PowerPC version of Linux.

    Mac OS X is a commercial product which I had to purchase. The version of Linux, otho, was simply downloaded from one of the internet mirrors and an installation CD was burned. It's available on the internet as a "public good." The difference, I guess, is the programmers and others who created and maintain this particular version of Linux do so voluntarily. They are not forced to do this work by any government or other authority.

    See The Cathedral and the Bazaar

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    I don't understand the question. Are you asking me if children or adults should be able to question government taxation? Of course they should. But you seem to think you are suggesting something really sinister, so maybe I'm misunderstanding you?...

    ...But that is a far cry from declaring it to be some kind of social evil, and if you look at the school's website and even their handling of this situation, it is significantly less totalitarian than the way most schools would handle the situation.
    nothing sinister intended...just too lazy this evening to look through the smilies list. I have nothing against the school doing what it is doing, so long as the parents are aware of and agree with it. Personally, if I had chosen to have children of my own, I would have done whatever I had to in order to homeschool them, vs. either public or private schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot
    You can't really get more politically incorrect than anarchism....
    Politically incorrect or not, I pretty much have been moving to the political belief system of either an Anarchist libertarian or a Libertarian anarchist...while I don't have much love of government in any form anymore, neither do I have much love for most of the multinational corporations.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot

    This is the essay which got me interested in Linux in the first place, but it is about time for a re-read. Had to be nearly five years ago when I first read it.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    I raised my kids to be greedy capitalists like me so that I can pass my business on to them when Im ready to retire, comfortable in the knowledge they won't give the assets away out of guilt or in response to social pressure. I chose to have them educated in Catholic schools. I liked the schools curriculum, the hard core homework/study demands and the fact that they weren't required to share their Legos.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    I raised my kids to be greedy capitalists like me so that I can pass my business on to them when Im ready to retire, comfortable in the knowledge they won't give the assets away out of guilt or in response to social pressure. I chose to have them educated in Catholic schools. I liked the schools curriculum, the hard core homework/study demands and the fact that they weren't required to share their Legos.

    FBR
    Yes... instead they will just cry while masturbating, making sure to wear gloves to avoid touching the parts of them that are soiled by original sin. Good call.

    Technically, I don't think the legos belonged to the children in question. I think they were class legos.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    ^^^ Honestly, I dont know if they cried or not. I have always been an emotionally distant father and am uncomfortable with those displays. But there was ample carpet stain evidence that the trama didnt discourage my sons too much. My daughter, Im not sure.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: Gobsmacked!

    Bah. Ten years from now, I doubt these kids will hardly remember this "lesson".

    Besides, some of them will eventually be attaining a next to useless liberal arts degree from some post-secondary university (many of which WILL be public institutions) where they'll be taught for a good 4-6 years about the evils of private ownership.

    Some of them will of course will eventually move on to good paying jobs, and then upon having to pay taxes, realize how much it sucks to have your hard earned legos taken away, just so their neighbor who didn't apply themselves can have some too.

    The irony in the linked article of course, is that they bring up the Kelo case which wasn't about eminent domain per se, but using eminent domain to take the property of one party and give it to another (usually more affluent) party who can allegedly produce more tax revenue with it. Hardly what I would call a means of trumpeting egalitarianism.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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