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Thread: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

  1. #1
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    for last night. I'm actually hoping the fact that I had such a lousy night will "look after it" for me ($200!! There is bad karma for you).
    So a guy started talking to me, and I thought he was pretty drunk. Drunk enough that I was all "should I take his money?" but he could still sign his name, so I was all, "Okay he seems lucid enough to spend money". After he bought a few dances, he started acting... weird. How weird, you might ask? REALLY weird. Like he's missing medication weird. Really, he was acting weird all along but I thought it was related to liquor, not a mental health disorder. I took his money; I had danced already and it was (demonstrably - see above) not much money, but still. I felt like crap about it, and today it's given me a bit of a hangover (you know the whole my ethics have been compromised, and these are all the reasons it isn't my fault hangover? THAT hangover).

    So what do y'all think? Is a $200 night enough karmic payment for letting someone with progressively more obvious mental health problems give me some of that money? Or do I need to watch out for falling anvils?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Veteran Member Emiliana's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    ooh I HATE moral hangovers. I'm sure not everyone is going to agree with me but....nobody forced him into the club and nobody forced him to sign his card slip. Just remember..none of us are there to play mommy/babysitter.

    Granted the shit that comes with personal responsibility hits both sides of the fan but you're not the bad guy. Besides if he was mentally disturbed enough to not know what he was doing i highly doubt he would be functional to be living on his own.( I don't know his specifics so im truly guessing here)

    A friend of mine works in an outpatient home for the mentally retarded and even the 'high functioners' would never be allowed to go to a stip club alone.

    Throw that guilt where it belongs...in the trash.
    Emiliana



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    Veteran Member T-10's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I'd say you re safe from falling anvils. The reason is because like Emiliana mentioned, if he was so far gone mentally that you need to be worried about karma you would have noticed it right away and not confused it with being drunk.
    Last edited by T-10; 03-30-2007 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #4
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    In no other profession do sales people feel bad for selling luxuries to people who shouldn't be buying them, but for some reason in this one it's to be expected sometimes. I don't know why. You're not his mother and it's not like you scammed him. He put up the money, you provided the service he paid for, end of story. I see no moral problem here.

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I've danced for people with mental problems as well. Hell, one guy even ripped ME off once! Did he seem unaware of what was occuring? Need more info........

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    God/dess Emily's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    In no other profession do sales people feel bad for selling luxuries to people who shouldn't be buying them, but for some reason in this one it's to be expected sometimes. I don't know why. You're not his mother and it's not like you scammed him. He put up the money, you provided the service he paid for, end of story. I see no moral problem here.
    I don't think that's true. I used to work in phone sex and phone psychic and I used to feel bad for keeping people on the phone that I knew shouldn't be there.

    But my theory is that if it isn't you, it's going to be someone else that scams them.

    Sometimes I try to do "the right thing" only to find some other girl hustling him later in an unethical way and kick myself for not doing it too!

    But I don't believe in karma.

    Emotional hangovers, yes, but not karma. Everyone has good nights and bad nights.

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I don't believe in 'karma' either. It's superstitious, and ironically it's a belief that only leads to more injustice. Ethics and psychology studies show that it's inherently human to believe in one way or another that life is fair, when really it's obviously not. That belief in turn leads to even more bad behaviour- it's why so often people tend to blame the victim. It's a common phenomena, as it the fact that everyone tends to be deluded into thinking they behave more justly than they do. Morality is circumstance. When we're tired, and under duress, we get sloppy (and not making any money is duress enough).

    So don't worry about it. If you didn't think it was the right thing to do, then learn and try to do better in future. I don't think you were being malicious. Ethically-flexible at best. Everyone gets flexible with values now and then. Live and learn, and forget about dropping anvils.

    Sorry for the rant! I just hate the karma idea so much. Because the opposite side of the coin is the belief that people starving in Sudan or something 'had it coming'. Doesn't karma come from that Hindu belief that starving or sick people really do have it coming?

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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    He wasn't retarded or autistic or anything; and he was aware enough to HAVE credit cards. He did have OCD, and I'm not sure what else might have gone along with that. I only realized that he was something other than drunk when we went downstairs for him to pay me; he told me that he knew the bouncer and the he and and the bouncer were friends. etc. They had only met the day before. But, I mean, it was obvious that he wasn't just "schmoozing" - he really thought the bouncer was his friend. Just an example - weird shit like that. He did have some nice stuff; phone, expensive watch etc; it's not like he was homeless and I took all the cash he made panhandling that day; it's obviously coming from somewhere. Either he has a good job when he's on his meds (or off his meds for all I know - but I'm positive he's normally on meds) or his family provides well or whatever.

    Anyway - thank you ladies. And molly. Thank you. I will stop worrying about falling anvils and start worrying about starving people in Sudan. Although you might think the opposite - that because they have suffered much in this life that their next one will be cake.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  9. #9
    Chicagoeditor
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    In no other profession do sales people feel bad for selling luxuries to people who shouldn't be buying them, but for some reason in this one it's to be expected sometimes.
    Bravo, Yek. Very, very well put!

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Emily said it,

    If it wasn't you receiving his money it would have been someone else..


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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    for last night. I'm actually hoping the fact that I had such a lousy night will "look after it" for me ($200!! There is bad karma for you).
    So a guy started talking to me, and I thought he was pretty drunk. Drunk enough that I was all "should I take his money?" but he could still sign his name, so I was all, "Okay he seems lucid enough to spend money". After he bought a few dances, he started acting... weird. How weird, you might ask? REALLY weird. Like he's missing medication weird. Really, he was acting weird all along but I thought it was related to liquor, not a mental health disorder. I took his money; I had danced already and it was (demonstrably - see above) not much money, but still. I felt like crap about it, and today it's given me a bit of a hangover (you know the whole my ethics have been compromised, and these are all the reasons it isn't my fault hangover? THAT hangover).

    So what do y'all think? Is a $200 night enough karmic payment for letting someone with progressively more obvious mental health problems give me some of that money? Or do I need to watch out for falling anvils?
    Well judging from the fact that you actually think about this stuff, you sound like a person with a heart and better the money go to you instead of some ungreatful girl that doesn't care about anything or anybody. I mean you did the work, you got paid for it...you have to make a living. Don't feel guilty for it.

  12. #12
    StrayStripper
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    1. I don't believe in Karma.
    2. Maybe he needed exactly what you provided?

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Girl, you did nothing wrong. It's not like you robbed him, drugged him & stole his wallet, he willingly gave it to you. I feel in dancing we dancers provide a great service, a lonely man comes in wanting/needing attention & ego stroking from a beautiful naked woman. They feel better when they leave because they just heard how macho they are and we feel better when we leave because we made great money (well, hopefully we made great money that night! )

  14. #14
    sun child
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I have a related story to share. While being forced to work a day shift a nice fellow dancer asked me to dance for her regular. Well, the guy was in a wheelchair and when I got him back in the dance area I also realized he was also mentally impaired. He was reaching out for my breasts as I air danced and saying something in mangled English that sounded a lot like..."Mommy." I felt guilty but I just air danced for him. I mean, it wasn't like I had approached him and hustled his retarded ass. Even though he had problems, somehow he transported himself alone to the club and understood that he had to pay me $20 a dance. He requested me. I think if a customer is lucent enough to understand the transaction and physically get to the club, we should not feel bad about providing services to them. Your job is to sell dances, and you were doing your job. And this is totally off topic but I think that a lot of SC customers have OCD and/or addiction issues.
    Last edited by sun child; 03-30-2007 at 04:43 PM. Reason: grammar

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    God/dess Andygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    How much of your $200 came from this guy? And how much of it did you make after you realized he was mentally impaired? If it was $20 or something I wouldn't worry about it, but if it was over $100 and you knew what you were doing I'd say that is something worthy of feeling guilty over.

    As for people not feeling guilty in other sales jobs? Bullshit. I'm sure that there are plenty of salespeople who feel bad after they take money from someone they know can't afford that television or car, or whatever. There's a reason salespeople get a reputation as sleazy, and that's because people think they do it with no moral compass. Obviously there are those of us who will not take advantage of people, but there are tons of salespeople who will think nothing of it. And yeah, IMO, that is bad karma and will come back to them.

    I try to treat people the way I'd want to be treated, and I also take into consideration a lot of things when a guy wants to spend all kinds of money or take a trip to the ATM when I know he can't afford it. Yeah, someone else will get that money, but I'll be able to look myself in the mirror and not feel like I have anything to be ashamed of. Everyone has their own threshold, and mine is pretty low when it comes to that type of thing.
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    Senior Member 8TJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    He paid for fun, he had it. You did not force or sell him onto more.
    As a guy who often spends WAY more then I planned at a SC, I
    NEVER blamed the dancer. I was the one who agreed to "one more dance"

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    I don't think that's true. I used to work in phone sex and phone psychic and I used to feel bad for keeping people on the phone that I knew shouldn't be there.
    Those are still "personal services" though. I do think there is some societal expectation that those of us in this particular type of business feel bad for "taking people's money" I doubt very seriously if the Rolex or Ferarri salespeople feel bad for taking someone's money when they are SURE that person really can't afford it.

    I don't lie or mislead about what anyone is buying, so I don't ever feel bad for "taking" his/her money. If they give it of their own free will, I'm not "taking" it. And frankly, I don't see it as my/our responsibility to look after our customers' finances or mental ability. Hell, if we were supposed to make selling decisions based on their mental abilities, we wouldn't make a living because then we'd have to refuse to sell to MOST guys

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    Featured Member xoxoGracexoxo's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Like others have said, he was lucid enough to get to the club, he wanted you to dance, and he had the money to pay for it. I don't think you need to feel bad. Wouldn't it be equally sad if a high-functioning person with a mental illness wanted a lapdance and couldn't get one because the dancer said they were too crazy? Wouldn't that kinda be discrimination?


    Quote Originally Posted by mollyzmoon View Post
    Sorry for the rant! I just hate the karma idea so much. Because the opposite side of the coin is the belief that people starving in Sudan or something 'had it coming'. Doesn't karma come from that Hindu belief that starving or sick people really do have it coming?
    Nah, actually karma is not a moral concept. There's no such thing as "good karma" or "bad karma." Karma is just the idea that all actions, however small, have consequences that unfold forever, and that given a long enough period of time -- say, eternity -- all the consequences will balance. Saying that karma is good or bad doesn't make any sense, because the consequences are unpredictable and varied. "Bad" actions can have good consequences for some people and vice versa. All the "good karma"/"bad karma"/"you'll come back as a turtle" stuff is basically the imposition of Western philosophy's good/bad morality system and short-term thinking. Jenny's customer will leave the club, having had whatever experience he had with her, and his future actions will be subtly altered because of it, and eventually those subtle alterations will influence the world in a way that affects Jenny, or some reincarnation of the soul currently known as Jenny. That's a gross over-simplification, of course, but that's more or less how it works.

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I see what you're saying, but to me the idea of consequential balance to personal actions, and 'reincarnation' are fairly mystical and unfounded ideas. I do believe that we are required to act with as much moral justice as we can, but after we die, that's it, you know? Our atoms are forever, far as science can tell, but what evidence do we have of any kind of reciprocal event? Western, or Eastern, most of these ideas are conveniently unfalsifiable. What is a soul? Where is it? Inside me? Not physical? What evidence do we have of unphysical things? I know there is more to the world than current physical sciences can discover. But given that we are limited to knowledge of our experiences, that's all we can safely make judgments about.

    Ok, that's my pragmatic philosophy for the day. Lol. Not to get into a spiritual debate, but that's why a gal takes philosophy- it's not cool to 'argue' beliefs outside of philosophy classrooms, most often. I mean no offense to anyone.

    Like believe me, I do think we have an obligation to give to charity, and to treat others with respect and empathy. But why we should act in such a way I think is grounded in a social contract, and our development as virtuous beings. Virtue for virtue's sake, if you will. Not to be good so that someday, assuming time is...what, circular? That things come to some kind of satisfying end...There is an 'ought' for our behaviour, but it can't really be derived from an 'is'.

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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    In no other profession do sales people feel bad for selling luxuries to people who shouldn't be buying them, but for some reason in this one it's to be expected sometimes.
    Oh sure they do. I used to sell fine jewelry and would feel bad selling that one carat diamond to a person who clearly couldn't afford it. I get them signed up for high interest credit that they would never be able to pay off with just the minimum payments, and use the minimum payment as enticement to purchase the too-expensive item.

    I had quotas to meet or I would lose my job (and I did). I had no problem selling items to people who could actually afford them. Unfortunately, it was one of those mall jewelry stores, so we didn't get too much in the way of affluent customers. Most of our customers were working class people looking for something small for themselves or as a gift. My job was to get them enticed by an extravagant piece and to sell it based on the "Low monthly payments". UGH! I felt like I might as well be working at one of those payday loan places. It was a pretty predatory type of sales.

    And Jenny, you're fine karmicly, IMO. Maybe you made that guy feel really happy. Bringing joy into someone's life shouldn't result in bad karma.


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    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    I have actually given this more thought with all y'all's insight and decided not to worry about it. My concern was never whether he could afford it - I took about $100, and the "realization" came between the dancing and getting paid; it was watching him interact with some other people. He wasn't retarded, and he definitely wasn't poor (like I said his watch and phone were kind of expensive), and who is to say that someone suffering from ocd and whatever other mental health disorders don't have a legitimate desire for lapdances?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Featured Member xoxoGracexoxo's Avatar
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    Default Re: I am facing serious Karmic retribution

    Quote Originally Posted by mollyzmoon View Post
    I see what you're saying, but to me the idea of consequential balance to personal actions, and 'reincarnation' are fairly mystical and unfounded ideas. I do believe that we are required to act with as much moral justice as we can, but after we die, that's it, you know? Our atoms are forever, far as science can tell, but what evidence do we have of any kind of reciprocal event? Western, or Eastern, most of these ideas are conveniently unfalsifiable. What is a soul? Where is it? Inside me? Not physical? What evidence do we have of unphysical things? I know there is more to the world than current physical sciences can discover. But given that we are limited to knowledge of our experiences, that's all we can safely make judgments about.

    Ok, that's my pragmatic philosophy for the day. Lol. Not to get into a spiritual debate, but that's why a gal takes philosophy- it's not cool to 'argue' beliefs outside of philosophy classrooms, most often. I mean no offense to anyone.

    Like believe me, I do think we have an obligation to give to charity, and to treat others with respect and empathy. But why we should act in such a way I think is grounded in a social contract, and our development as virtuous beings. Virtue for virtue's sake, if you will. Not to be good so that someday, assuming time is...what, circular? That things come to some kind of satisfying end...There is an 'ought' for our behaviour, but it can't really be derived from an 'is'.
    Oh, sure. I'm not arguing for the existence of karma, just saying what the philisophical princepts are, a little bit. Though, actually, I think it's one of the less mystical concepts out there. If you forget about reincarnation -- although, as you point out, the atoms aren't destroyed, so inevitably we are "reincarnated" in some sense -- then all you're talking about is the idea that our actions have consequences for other people and for ourselves. Especially for ourselves. If you hurt people, you become a person who hurts people. In the end, that's at least as negative for you as for them. Think about the people you know who do the most harm to others -- probably not the happiest people. Being angry and violent -- even if the violence is only emotional-- is physically bad for you. Bad for you heart, bad for your nerves, bad for your immune system.

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