Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 79

Thread: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

  1. #1
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Today's horrific massacre at Va. Tech. will undoubtedly give rise to another round of efforts to ban handguns. It was worse than Columbine and the University of Texas massacres.

  2. #2
    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    123 Tornado Alley Way, Hooterville USA
    Posts
    6,322
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 36 Times in 30 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    I wonder what VT's policy on gun possession is...

    Oh never mind, I found it.

    http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-21770
    http://www.policies.vt.edu/5616.pdf

    The university’s employees, students, and volunteers, or any visitor or other third party attending a sporting, entertainment, or educational event, or visiting an academic or administrative office building or residence hall, are further prohibited from carrying, maintaining, or storing a firearm or weapon on any university facility, even if the owner has a valid permit, when it is not required by the individual’s job, or in accordance with the relevant University Student Life Policies.

    Any such individual who is reported or discovered to possess a firearm or weapon on university property will be asked to remove it immediately. Failure to comply may result in a student judicial referral and/or arrest, or anemployee disciplinary action and/or arrest.


    Hmm....very interesting, and I'm sure there's going to be some second guessing considering how the shooting today transpired.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

  3. #3
    Banned ArmySGT.'s Avatar
    Joined
    May 2005
    Location
    SW Counter Troll HQ
    Posts
    5,582
    Thanks
    1,589
    Thanked 1,674 Times in 1,043 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    So if the Killer hadn't commited suicide then he would have been expelled? Well that will teach him, but that made him pause for reconsideration. I wonder what the backlash will be. I have read but have been unable to confirm Israeli policy. I was told that Israel had a problem with Palestinians attacking schools. That in response the schools armed the teachers and that volunteers such as grandparents are armed on schools.

  4. #4
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I've heard that when buying a gun today you have to fill out a form that asks whether or not you've ever been convicted of a crime. And if you answer "No" there is a database where your criminal history, if any, can be cross-checked.

    They also ask if you've ever been diagnosed or treated for mental illness. If you answer "NO" there is no way to check whether or not you really have. So I've been told - so I understand.

  5. #5
    God/dess
    Joined
    Dec 2004
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    2,218
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 209 Times in 142 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    In the UK about 20 years ago we had a number of massacres - Dunblane, Hungerford, etc.

    We then had some draconian laws passed that effectively removed legal ways of the average person owning or accessing handguns and rifles.

    Since then we've had zero massacres because it's far more difficult for a mentally unbalanced person to acccess a firearm.

    Wish I could say the same for the US.

    OK - UK based criminals get and use them, but these tend to be single shootings, not massacres. Plus, although shooting make headlines, they're not that frequent in the UK.

    Check out the homicide rate per 1,000 people in the UK and the US. I think you'll find the largely gun free UK has a significantly lower rate than the US.

    Phil.

  6. #6
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    ^^^ ironically, the highest incidence of gun related deaths in the USA occurs in cities / states that have enacted the stricted anti-gun laws ! The lowest incidence of gun related deaths occurs in cities / states where the gun laws are very lenient. Arguably the differentiating factor is the odds of the would be assailant encountering a victim who is equally / better armed than the assailant !

    Yes, obviously the 33 deaths resulting from the Virginia Tech nutcase shooting spree was tragic and made major headlines. But statistically speaking this is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to typical murder rates in D.C., New Orleans, NYC, L.A. and a host of other major US cities that have enacted strict anti-gun laws - which DON'T make the headlines (very often).



    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-17-2007 at 03:42 PM.

  7. #7
    Banned ArmySGT.'s Avatar
    Joined
    May 2005
    Location
    SW Counter Troll HQ
    Posts
    5,582
    Thanks
    1,589
    Thanked 1,674 Times in 1,043 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I've heard that when buying a gun today you have to fill out a form that asks whether or not you've ever been convicted of a crime. And if you answer "No" there is a database where your criminal history, if any, can be cross-checked.

    They also ask if you've ever been diagnosed or treated for mental illness. If you answer "NO" there is no way to check whether or not you really have. So I've been told - so I understand.
    BATFE Form 4473

    National Crime Information Computer (NCIC)

    No transaction if:
    Criminal conviction
    Domestic Violence
    Diagnosed with mental illness
    Illegal drug abuser
    Bad Conduct Discharge
    Illegal alien
    Under 18 (handguns)
    there's more thats off the top of my head.


    Records
    name, address, SSN or Tax ID, DL#, make, model, serial, number, caliber, multiple hanguns require additional paperwork.

  8. #8
    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    123 Tornado Alley Way, Hooterville USA
    Posts
    6,322
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 36 Times in 30 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Arguably the differentiating factor is the odds of the would be assailant encountering a victim who is equally / better armed than the assailant.
    As I stated above, I wonder if the body count yesterday could have been minimized if VT students, faculty and staff were allowed to carry firearms with them on campus. By some media accounts, the shooter only turned his weapon on himself when the police (the only other ones with weapons) had closed in on him.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

  9. #9
    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,860
    Thanks
    268
    Thanked 103 Times in 67 Posts
    My Mood
    Pensive

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    While I think gun control should be tighter in the US (the right to bear arms is, in my view, largely responsible for America's high homicide rate compared to countries like Australia, where no such right exists and there is stringent gun control), my main feeling about this latest shooting is simply sadness. Such a terrible waste.

  10. #10
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by flickad View Post
    While I think gun control should be tighter in the US (the right to bear arms is, in my view, largely responsible for America's high homicide rate compared to countries like Australia, where no such right exists and there is stringent gun control), my main feeling about this latest shooting is simply sadness. Such a terrible waste.

    It's ironic because when you actually bother to look at other countries with private gun ownership- Canada, Switzerland, Israel - their crime rates are much lower than ours. Especially gun violence.

    Afaik when Texas and Florida passed "right to carry" laws they both had large declines in violent crime; particularly assaults on women.

    I did some checking and to answer my own question : At present there is no effective way to check the mental history of a gun applicant thanks to the ACLU and others who insist on keeping medical records "private". Well DUH ! if you want to legally buy a firearm what's wrong with waiving a little "privacy" and signing an authorization to permit checking your mental as well as criminal background ? What's wrong with suspending if not revoking the gun permits for "mentally ill" people and taking away their guns ?

  11. #11
    Featured Member flickad's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,860
    Thanks
    268
    Thanked 103 Times in 67 Posts
    My Mood
    Pensive

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    It's ironic because when you actually bother to look at other countries with private gun ownership- Canada, Switzerland, Israel - their crime rates are much lower than ours. Especially gun violence.

    Afaik when Texas and Florida passed "right to carry" laws they both had large declines in violent crime; particularly assaults on women.

    I did some checking and to answer my own question : At present there is no effective way to check the mental history of a gun applicant thanks to the ACLU and others who insist on keeping medical records "private". Well DUH ! if you want to legally buy a firearm what's wrong with waiving a little "privacy" and signing an authorization to permit checking your mental as well as criminal background ? What's wrong with suspending if not revoking the gun permits for "mentally ill" people and taking away their guns ?
    You're right, I didn't bother to look at countries aside from my own and the UK. However, I wasn't interested in having a detailed debate on the issue (if I had been I'd likely have done research further afield). A mere statement of opinion was my intent, rather than entry into another long and pointless internet argument.

    I agree that the ownership of guns should be carefully screened. While I think medical records should indeed be kept private in most circumstances, there perhaps should be exemptions in cases where others are potentially endangered. There are broader public safety issues afoot, and to me that trumps any right an applicant for an arms license might have to shield their psychiatric history. I also would not see mental health screening as necessarily being an invasion of privacy since there's always the option of simply not applying for a gun. Gun ownership is a voluntary thing, after all, and I'd hardly call it an essential.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    521
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    These are two interesting links on this topic

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b7f78c351b6.htm

    http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/The...unControl.html

    One pro and one con, so each one obviously has a specific agenda in this debate.

    I've only taken the time to skim through both at the moment, but believe these links are relevant to the current debate here.

    I'm going to read the one about Switzerland vs. the U.S. first, as I'm interested in why the difference in gun-related violence between the two countries?

    As to what transpired at Virginia Tech, I saw some headline this morning on my way to work, describing the murderer as a "tormented loner." I've heard similar phrases used before to describe others who've committed the same type of crime. But in this case, the killer was a legal immigrant from South Korea. I don't know how long he has been in the U.S., but wonder if whatever motivated him to mass murder is related to U.S. culture, South Korean culture, or is some combination of both cultures.
    Last edited by PhaedrusZ; 04-18-2007 at 12:04 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #13
    smartcookie
    Guest

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish View Post
    As I stated above, I wonder if the body count yesterday could have been minimized if VT students, faculty and staff were allowed to carry firearms with them on campus. By some media accounts, the shooter only turned his weapon on himself when the police (the only other ones with weapons) had closed in on him.
    I'm so with you on this! The problem here isn't that too many people have easy access to guns; the problem here is that not enough students are taking guns to class. They should be as mandatory as pen, pencil, and paper, and textbooks. In fact, I can't understand why pencil cases with 9mm barrels and telescopic sights haven't been invented yet.

    Wouldn't it be beneficial if students were to bring guns into school at an even earlier age, so that younger students can learn how to use them in case an incident like this occurs at their elementary schools? Steve Jobs is working on a very user-friendly iHandgun, I hear. I think this will definitely help to prevent more campus shootings in the future, and thank God, really.

  14. #14
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    8,031
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 143 Times in 42 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Smartcookie, you're missing the point, which is that the dude was a fucking immigrant and if our goddamn borders were sealed he wouldn't have made it in to America where his nautralized ass could buy a gun. It's immigration that's at the root of this tragedy!

    But I support your modest proposal for all students to be armed. That would so help.





    jesus fucking christ, people, what is up with this country's ridiculous attachment to firearms? It's bullshit.

  15. #15
    God/dess
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,427
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by doc-catfish View Post
    As I stated above, I wonder if the body count yesterday could have been minimized if VT students, faculty and staff were allowed to carry firearms with them on campus. By some media accounts, the shooter only turned his weapon on himself when the police (the only other ones with weapons) had closed in on him.
    this could go both ways, though. personally, i wouldn't want to be in class with someone that had a gun sitting next to me. and it very well might have helped, but at the same time, in other cases, it could hurt.

  16. #16
    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2005
    Location
    where they like American Boys
    Posts
    2,111
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Today's horrific massacre at Va. Tech. will undoubtedly give rise to another round of efforts to ban handguns. It was worse than Columbine and the University of Texas massacres.

    Given the horrific event. I know the families must be extremely hurt and angry. My prayers go out to them! Yet I hope everyone understand banning guns will not end this promblem. It will leave citzen even more vunerable. I stand by my bill of rights.( the right to bear arms). Which I believe provide one of the best protection. Dealing with these crazy people. who will go to extreme event to hurt you, F&*&^ that! I now carry my pieace, so I can be at peace.

    Because you ban things that do not mean it wont be easy to get, it will mean people will crave for it more, maybe we all should be more educated on guns and life and rage and hate. Also it will be a good idea to get help for the mently ill instead of letting them run the streets.
    If you want the present to be differant from the past, study the past.
    Baruch Spindza

    It is what it is, not what you want it to become, that's important -- at least for now. Today, remember that things worth having are worth waiting for!
    The Stars

    Minds are like parachutes: They only function when open.
    Thomas Dewar

    Dont throw away the old bucket until you know whether the new one holds water.
    Swedish Proverb

  17. #17
    Yekhefah
    Guest

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner
    if you want to legally buy a firearm what's wrong with waiving a little "privacy" and signing an authorization to permit checking your mental as well as criminal background ? What's wrong with suspending if not revoking the gun permits for "mentally ill" people and taking away their guns ?
    The trouble there is who decides what? I have had a history of depression and anxiety, and I've been under care for it. I spent four weeks in a mental hospital when I was 12, saw a lot of shrinks as a teenager, and as a 19-year-old college student I spent a lot of time in therapy. I've got a handle on it now and don't need treatment. If I had a stalker after me or economic circumstances forced me to live in a dangerous neighborhood, I would want a gun. But a lot of people's definition of "history of mental illness" would prohibit me from purchasing one under those rules, thus putting my life in jeopardy. So who gets to decide where the line is drawn?

    I'm not saying "let's arm the insane," just pointing out that there are considerations here.

    As for gun control... I know that Europe and Australia do great with it, but it would require a constitutional amendment here. I CANNOT support gun control laws that violate the Constitution, or the Constitution is meaningless (although it pretty much is nowadays anyway).

    And there are cultural issues at work here. You can ban handguns in Britain and Australia and most people will comply, but here that only removes them from law-abiding people who want to defend themselves. We have a HUGE criminal element that will always be able to obtain handguns. And as long as the criminals are going to have guns, then in my opinion law-abiding citizens should be able to have them too. It's a proven fact that areas with high numbers of concealed-carry permits have much lower crime rates.

  18. #18
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SoCal (aka the Evil Vortex of Doom)
    Posts
    1,617
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    As for gun control... I know that Europe and Australia do great with it, but it would require a constitutional amendment here. I CANNOT support gun control laws that violate the Constitution, or the Constitution is meaningless (although it pretty much is nowadays anyway).
    Maybe you can help me understand something.

    When I read the Second Amendment, I feel that the "well-regulated militia" part takes precedence over the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" part.

    I mean, when the Amendment was written, we'd just fought a war against a powerful country. Our population was very small--there were not enough people to allow for a large army of professional soldiers. Regular folks fought the Redcoats, right? Anyone who was able to pick up a musket became a soldier. Wasn't that the primary reason to "keep and bear arms"? So that you could pick them up and defend your country against foreign invaders, should the need arise, as part of a well-regulated militia?

    Things have changed so much since the Bill of Rights was written. We have a large, powerful, standing army (or we did till youknowwho took office). Our population is exploding. Mental illness is more prevalent than ever. The "criminal element" in society is a tad different than it was in the 1790's. Muskets are antiques. Automatic and semi-automatic weapons can wreak horrific damage in less time than it takes your heart to beat.

    I'm not entirely anti-gun. But I read the Second Amendment to allow for some very serious gun control. Again, the phrase "well-regulated militia" really jumps out at me.

    And even if the Second Amendment is interpreted to allow no room for restrictions on who may own or carry a weapon, the beauty of our Constitution, and the reason it has survived so long, is that there are provisions to allow for change--with careful consideration, and appropriate consensus.

    It takes only a brief look at the original document to see that some things that were allowed for in the Constitution were just plain morally wrong, and bad for society and humanity as a whole.

    So, yeah. I think we should exercise extreme caution in changing the Constitution. But refusing to do it at all, ever, would be missing the whole point--the Founding Fathers understood that some change would be inevitable, and they expressly allowed for it in the document itself. When the times change in profound ways, the document--or more likely its interpretation-- can change along with them.

    I agree wholeheartedly that getting Americans to give up their guns and go all British/Aussie pacifistic would require a HUGE shift in cultural attitudes. I don't see it happening anytime soon. [<--understatement]. But given the carnage that we see every day in America (not just in these rare school shootings), I think that kind of attitude change -- from "you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands" to "what on earth would I need a gun for?" -- would be a worthy goal to work towards.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  19. #19
    God/dess
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,427
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    can i just point something out?

    if guns are banned, made illegal, whatever.. PEOPLE CAN AND WILL STILL GET THEM. i just don't see the point in banning them from people who might legitimately need them, like yek said. i personally wouldn't want one in my apartment. but i was getting threatening phone calls last summer, and if i was the type of person who DID feel comfortable with it, maybe i would've wanted one.

    how many criminals purchse guns legally? 100% legally. walk into the store themselves and get them? not many. and even if they were banned.. drugs aren't legal. people get drugs. many things that are illegal are still going on, so making guns illegal or making the process harder to get one would, imo, only lead to more people obtaining them illegally.

  20. #20
    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2005
    Location
    where they like American Boys
    Posts
    2,111
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by britt244 View Post
    can i just point something out?


    how many criminals purchse guns legally? 100% legally. walk into the store themselves and get them? not many. and even if they were banned.. drugs aren't legal. people get drugs. many things that are illegal are still going on, so making guns illegal or making the process harder to get one would, imo, only lead to more people obtaining them illegally.

    I agree with you!
    If you want the present to be differant from the past, study the past.
    Baruch Spindza

    It is what it is, not what you want it to become, that's important -- at least for now. Today, remember that things worth having are worth waiting for!
    The Stars

    Minds are like parachutes: They only function when open.
    Thomas Dewar

    Dont throw away the old bucket until you know whether the new one holds water.
    Swedish Proverb

  21. #21
    Yekhefah
    Guest

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Nicolina, push for an amendment to the Constitution then if you like. That is your right, and plenty of people would support you. But the Second Amendment does NOT restrict gun ownership to the military. The men who wrote those words gathered the people together against an oppressive, unjust government. Now that OUR government is oppressive and unjust, they are doing everything they can to disarm the populace and keep us from fighting back. Once the population is truly helpless, who is to stop them from throwing out the Constitution entirely and setting up whatever kind of fascist dictatorship they like?

  22. #22
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SoCal (aka the Evil Vortex of Doom)
    Posts
    1,617
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Well, I would just point out that the Virginia Tech shooter apparently obtained his gun "100&#37; legally."
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  23. #23
    God/dess
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    8,427
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    i realize that, but my thing is that i think he would've gotten it anyway.

  24. #24
    Yekhefah
    Guest

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    ^^^ How many people do you think he would've killed if other people were legally allowed to carry handguns on campus? I'd bet someone would've stopped him sooner.

  25. #25
    God/dess leilanicandy's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2005
    Location
    where they like American Boys
    Posts
    2,111
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: Stand By for the latest Ban Handguns effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    ^^^ How many people do you think he would've killed if other people were legally allowed to carry handguns on campus? I'd bet someone would've stopped him sooner.
    Banning guns in a place of learning,is one thing! But banning guns in general is a big mess. NO matter how much people that choose not to be violent. Go against guns. Who preach that violence is not the way, it still wont change the minds of a pyscho! ( Rember that) They cant even get people to help them with out getting all drug up!Maybe if the school will screen there students more carefully. Or better yet when he was throwing all those red flag around! Took him and kept him in a mental hosptial instead of letting him out again! Maybe this would have never happen.

    Guns do not kill people. People kill people
    If you want the present to be differant from the past, study the past.
    Baruch Spindza

    It is what it is, not what you want it to become, that's important -- at least for now. Today, remember that things worth having are worth waiting for!
    The Stars

    Minds are like parachutes: They only function when open.
    Thomas Dewar

    Dont throw away the old bucket until you know whether the new one holds water.
    Swedish Proverb

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Cam Sites with minimal Effort?
    By AngelCummings in forum Other Work
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-08-2011, 07:44 PM
  2. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-03-2010, 12:51 AM
  3. The Prolonged Effort
    By Everyman in forum Customer Conversation
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 09-17-2009, 05:09 PM
  4. Mercy Corps for the relief effort
    By NinaDaisy in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-08-2005, 12:23 AM
  5. They get an A for effort, but a misdemeanor bust nonetheless
    By Melonie in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-07-2005, 07:53 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •