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Thread: The history of grinding during a PD

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    Veteran Member rlams2000's Avatar
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    Default The history of grinding during a PD

    When I first started going to SCs during the early 80's PDs were very low contact. I remember having to sit on my hands. During the 90s I rarely went to a SC except for a bachelor party and usually was too busy with the BP to buy a PD. About a year ago I started visiting SCs again and I couldn't believe how things have changed. The grinding and humping by the dancer having become the norm. And the separate areas with the little booths and beds.

    My question is when did all of the high contact start? Did it magically happen overnight? Why the increase in contact?

    Mind you, I'm not complaining, although some dancers are a little too rough for my older fragile body, but I'm just curious.

    BTW, I really enjoy my local Hustler club.

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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by rlams2000 View Post
    ... Why the increase in contact? ...
    Competition - Between clubs, between dancers, etc. - combined with an increasingly more liberal society.
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Lola Rose
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    ^yep! It was a novel ideal, naked dancers to start with, and now it's become almost normal. So, to make as much as possible, the limits have been pushed as far as legally possible, and farther.

    But there are still no contact and very low contact clubs out there. But it's no longer the norm.

    I think of it like how what was once allowed only in an R rated movie can now be seen in PG-13.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    When I started gpoing to clubs in the mid-70s, there was only stage shows and tips were collected onstage. Now some of the clubs are almost brothels; in fact one I went to 5-6 years ago was actually a brothel (what a surprise).
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    When I first saw dancers in the strip pubs in the UK (which was 30 years ago now) it was considerably less explicit. Knickers off in the last 30 seconds and full frontal only.

    As Lola Rose said, nudity's become almost common place now, so to keep the shock factor things have got ever more explicit.

    I kinda liked the old way of doing things - it was entertainment, albeit of an unusual kind.

    Must be harder for the dancers now, with ever more contact expeted.

    Phil.

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    God/dess doc-catfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    When I started gpoing to clubs in the mid-70s, there was only stage shows
    Yes, we often forget there was once a time when PD's were well...non existent. When clubs began allowing dancers to do them and saw how much money there could be made from them that marked the end of shift pay and the beginning of house fees. When air dances became commonplace, the ante was upped to one-way contact dances, and over the years the progression (or digression if you want to look at it that way) towards higher and higher contact continued. Laws prohibiting such contact ironically enough have actually made the situation worse. Even stageside, things have gotten grittier.

    I thankfully was able to cut my SC teeth in a zero contact stage only club about 12 years ago. Recently, even that club has given in to the pressures of modern times and added a PD area...albeit they are air dances. Things move along more slowly in some locales than others.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    God/dess FBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    I didnt start clubbing until around 1998. Guess all the foreplay was over with by then. It was grinding/humping LD's from the get go. In a way, I feel bad that I didnt experience the formative years.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    God/dess jaizaine's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    I never knew that prostitution was illegal in the US until I found out on SW.

    Do you think that fact makes people seeking extras go to strip clubs and try to get them there?

    In Australia and Melbourne where I am from there are licensed brothels everywhere that sell sex for very cheap - like as cheap as $80 whereas an "air dance" is $50. I think if a customer trully wants a HJ, BJ etc they will not pay the $50 for an air-dance so it keeps the two a bit more separate.

    There are also in-between places that are not really brothels but not table-top strip clubs and they are more of a tub and tug venue.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    In the 70's and 80's there was high contact off the floor when girls hustled champagne sales instead of private dances.

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    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by verfolgung View Post
    Competition - Between clubs, between dancers, etc. - combined with an increasingly more liberal society.
    Much more than that. If it were only that, things wouldn't be NEARLY as raunchy as they are. Try this:
    1. increased local legal restrictions making it impossible to make money legally, combined with
    2. too many clubs opening up spreading the market too thin (so they start charging girls to work AND hiring way too many in order to keep up their bottom lines), along with
    3. legal responsibilities being shifted from the clubs to the girls (so clubs no longer have a reason to enforce the rules, hence they let anything go on)
    4. desperation among dancers who could no longer make a living the old way upping the contact ante in order to continue paying the bills
    5. IRS regulations severely limiting expense account spending, therefore making girls MORE desperate
    6. customers figuring out they can get away with more, pushing the limits, demanding more and more "money's worth"
    7. hookers coming in off the streets to work in the clubs
    8. internet forums for customers to discuss how to get more bang for their buck and who offers what and what price
    9. newer dancers coming on the scene, not being taught how to hustle properly (the way many older dancers were when we first started), thinking "this is how everyone does it" and complying because they just don't know better
    10. inexperienced girls upping the contact ante because again, they haven't been taught shit and can't compete on a purely sales basis, so they compete the easiest way, by just latching on to a dick
    11. MTV et all airing tons of bullshit about stripclubs and strippers, so everyone thinks it's all this big nasty drunken and drugged out humpfest


    It took a whole hell of a lot more than simple "competition" to make it evolve the way it has....

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    ^ Agreed with Bridgette, as that seems almost chronological with regard to cause-and-effect.

    One thing that can't be ignored is the prolific availability of adult material and services available via the internet; when the internet really became mainstream in 1994-1995, clubs began operating differently. I remember the first time I visited a club in early 1990 (a one-way contact place, in Texas, no less), and as a dumb 18-year old SC noob, I practically had my hand broken for just barely grazing this dancer's ass. Fast forward to 1994, and contact levels were already much different; I vividly recall a trip to a Deja Vu outside of Tacoma where I was literally shocked what was passing for a lap dance--and even that is now tame in comparison to what can be had for less money when I visit Providence. And yet I'm less satisfied with visits recently than when I was more caught up in the obvious unavailability of dancers 15 years ago, because the quality of dancers has simply plummeted, due in no small part to factors Bridgette laid out in detail.

    The internet changed the way people looked at adult services and really up-ed the ante in terms of customer expectations and the appeal of the industry to a whole new group of women that would otherwise never probably enter that field, and not for the better of the industry, frankly.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

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    Veteran Member rlams2000's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Thanks for the replies everybody. All good points.

    I forgot to add that I don't think I ever saw a female customer in a club in the 80's but now it's fairly common.

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    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    The internet ...... really up-ed the ante in terms of customer expectations and the appeal of the industry to a whole new group of women that would otherwise never probably enter that field, and not for the better of the industry, frankly.
    The internet, along with other mainstream media. MTV being one of the worst culprits. With ya on the NOT for the better of the industry part. Sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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    Senior Member Lio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    I remember about six or seven years ago I was shocked to hear a radio advertisement for a strip club. Now I hear them so often that I hardly pay attention. Now they are even on late night local TV channels. A new bigger more expensive and lavish place seems to be opening in South Chicago or Indiana constantly. As a result many smaller clubs like pastie bars with low or no contact rules are forced to change or go out of busness. That's what just happened to a club I went to for ten years. I remember the owner talking about how there used to be religious groups who would protest out in the parking lot when the place first opened around 25 years ago.

    Not to provoke the wrath of a God/dess, but I think Casual Observer is way off when he says the quality of the dancer has gone down over the years. It's just the opposite, because of the growing public acceptance and the big business involvement, many more very beautiful women are becoming dancers. None of these new dancers would have ever even considered this as a career 30 years ago, because of all the negative stigma that was given to exotic dancers and strip clubs. It still exists, but not nearly like it was many years ago.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by Lio View Post
    Not to provoke the wrath of a God/dess, but I think Casual Observer is way off when he says the quality of the dancer has gone down over the years. It's just the opposite, because of the growing public acceptance and the big business involvement, many more very beautiful women are becoming dancers. None of these new dancers would have ever even considered this as a career 30 years ago, because of all the negative stigma that was given to exotic dancers and strip clubs. It still exists, but not nearly like it was many years ago.
    So, to you, "quality" just means a beautiful face and hot body?

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    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Not to provoke the wrath of a God/dess, but I think Casual Observer is way off when he says the quality of the dancer has gone down over the years. It's just the opposite, because of the growing public acceptance and the big business involvement, many more very beautiful women are becoming dancers.
    Dude, I don't know how broadly you club, but the girls aren't getting hotter in SCs. It's almost like a mass exodus of hot dancers outside of perhaps Vegas and maybe Phoenix, if B's pleas for reregulation of the business are to be believed. Just look at what other strippers on this very board are saying about girls' physical qualifications these days.

    Yet another purely anecdotal, yet slightly atypical example:

    I'm out at a very busy, very popular club in Providence just last night with my primary ladyfriend. This place is not a greasy dive where your feet stick to the floor, and they have uniformed city cops working right inside the door (hey, it's Providence...you were expecting something else?). We pay an extortionate cover charge and sit down at a rail-side table for about an hour, waiting for a chick that was worth a damn to get on stage or walk in or out of the PD/VIP area. We spot exactly three girls, all of whom are either hanging on a regular or a fucko. Aside from that, nothing. Nada. Just lots of girls (probably 50 girls here on weekend nights, sometimes much more) with bad surgeries, bad ink, spare tires or eating disorders--sometimes a combination of those. A dude in a group of guys behind us remarks to his buddies that, "I guess you don't have to be hot to be a stripper anymore." Everyone starts laughing. The place is pretty crowded, but no one is at the rail tipping the rotating girls on the stage who must have missed the memo that dancing is a lot more than gash flashing, ass-slapping and foot-stomping on the stage. It's pretty lame and depressing. We get up to leave and hit another club with my money still in my pocket, not expecting it to be much different.

    Then, like it was a movie or something, this phenomenally tight Brazilian chick gets up on the stage, nonchalantly wipes down the poles and then tears the place up with outfuckingstanding pole work and a graceful athleticism that went from aggressive and powerful to soft and seductive and back again. The chick must have been a gymnast or an athlete of some kind because she was physically just exceptional. Suddenly, you couldn't even stand at the rail because everyone was up there, and even the folks in the periphery of the club were watching the main stage. People were laying lots of money out on the rail. She was awesome and people knew it. She wasn't without fault (she did this odd stage-fucking thing with her lower abdomen that was just...odd, and unappealing, at least to us), but it was probably the best stage show I'd seen in a long time, from a chick that was actually built like a stripper. I had laid out the entire contents of my left pocket (my tip and drink cache) on the rail for her, and it wasn't unnoticed. Now, of course, my lady and I are standing at the rail, and the stripper decided to use her legs like a vise on both our heads (politely and carefully removing my obscenely expensive glasses first--they looked good on her, too, I have to say) which is not really my thing, but of course the crowd loved it and S and I got to feel just how fit this chick was--you could bounce quarters off of pretty much anywhere on this chick. We obviously tried to line up dances with her, but she was already spoken for--as we expected. Overall, that's the type of experience clubs are lacking, because they're bringing in anyone with a pulse instead of girls that can fill the role. We left after that because, well, as my primary said, "How do you follow that?"

    We won't even address the endemic lack of sales skills or the know-how of providing a good stripper experience, but if your club is chock full of hot chicks, that's awesome--let it be known. But nationally, the industry is in a downward spiral--for all the reasons B laid out--and that's bad for both strippers and customers.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    I kind of want to go out on a limb here (Why not? That's where all the fruit is...) And ask (Bridgette and CO especially) a few example based questions based on this kind of thing.

    I am absolutely not an oldschool club goer, but lets just say I grew up watching this thing unfold, not really understanding it then as I do now,

    But I would say that, prostitution via club fronts as well as high contact has always been there, just less hard to find, and now becoming more of the norm MAINLY because the dancer's ability to say "No" to an offer carries more burden than it does.

    Again, I will humbly take the hammer of Bridgette's correcting in the face if I so deserve it, but I feel that the sex industry, as tied to money, is also tied to greed, since our generation now is almost MORE shocked by the well paying, yet non-expecting customer than we are the well paying, expecting, customer and so on, that it becomes a vicious cycle.

    People, due to higher availability of in-home/income based expenses (want to say "bills" but that really isn't enough) has taught the consumer that to put money into something and not "get something" in return is HORRIBLE (ask Melony ) that that must insinuate that the LD no longer carries a broad 20.00 value. So to pay for those bills, dancers up the ante in contact and long conversations, I.E. Anything to let her stand OUT to the customer. Because as soon as the customer, good or bad, believes they aren't getting what they want for the money they're paying, things change almost immediately and not for the financial benefit.

    When I'd overhear stories of how the industry "WAS", sounded to me like a time when Dancers where paid to attend parties at a club and put on shows for people who paid a cover charge to be a part of that party. High cost drinks aren't new, and neither was the expecting-more customer. Since LD's weren't all that available, 10 dollars at the rail got you what 1 dollar does now. This was back in a time where people were generally simpler, didn't get bombarded by marketing in every media telling them what they had was bad and what they could buy from Walmart is better (Hey, she's your wife, I know....but what happens in vegas, STAYS in vegas....) and people were generally less miserable, and could pay their bills get their shit at home done, invest in a nest egg, go out once or twice a month, and STILL have a couple hundred to blow without feeling the pain of it's loss.

    Once money hurt to give, the ability to not have at least a STORY you can SHARE about the loss of that money really focuses on the reality of what is a waste. And some people have to look at that reality with every second mortgage payment, that they took out to had a good time because otherwise they just couldn't afford it.

    I mean C'MON they ADVERTISE SECOND MORTGAGES now as a way to go on a VACATION.

    I think, really, the history of lap dances and what's to come closely follows the slow lack of expendable cashflow and the overwhelming misery our people feel when they just can't afford that 5.00/month for HBO because their gas bill has been stacking up.

    Back in the day, we were an "I'm good" group. Everyone knew how to save, and most grandmas/pas and moms/dads really understood what it was like to not want for much more than you need and don't really understand why kids today "need so much" it's stretching us thin, and making us a miserable people who focus on that little sliver of expendable cash made so, because we go out to eat 5 times a week instead of cooking. I even see this in MY selling to the current business owners.

    And finally:

    Now these miserable people who feel out of control, go to a place where, (probably not intentionally but over time they kind of figure it out) they pay to feel in control, but like any drug, the high wears off, so if you pay more you may get more bang for your buck, and there's a dancer who needs that buck enough to give more bang. YMMV

    Oh wait? There was a show? I really thought this was a sex predator training and enabling center....

    It's a vicious cycle, and it gets worse and worse. Maybe we need to start a chain of hardcore party houses in every big area and bring back the image.

    AGAIN, I accept being completely baseless in this as I'm only speaking through limited observation, if I'm wrong it'd probably be better to educate me since I'm interested in learning, you know, instead of hanging me on the cross....cause that's useful.
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Veteran Member casaubon1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by liberator View Post
    In the 70's and 80's there was high contact off the floor when girls hustled champagne sales instead of private dances.
    Amidst all the "Decline and Fall of the Stripper Empire" comments, this point is worth emphasizing.

    While the "approved" grinding LD may not have existed in the 1970s, the *lots of contact* champagne hustle sure did. Customer buys dancer a drink and they head off to a dark corner, dancer lays on serious pitch for a bottle of champagne. Don't ask what kind of persuasion was going on under the tablecloth.

    I think each generation finds its own way to do basically the same thing.

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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by Lio View Post
    Not to provoke the wrath of a God/dess, but I think Casual Observer is way off when he says the quality of the dancer has gone down over the years. It's just the opposite, because of the growing public acceptance and the big business involvement, many more very beautiful women are becoming dancers.
    Perhaps you're behind the times where you live, or you're not very observant. The trend you're describing happened in most of the country about 15 years ago. In fact, as dancer income potential has plummeted while customer expectations have risen, a lot of those "very beautiful women" have gotten out of the biz.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Moderator yoda57us's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by Lio View Post

    Not to provoke the wrath of a God/dess, but I think Casual Observer is way off when he says the quality of the dancer has gone down over the years. It's just the opposite, because of the growing public acceptance and the big business involvement, many more very beautiful women are becoming dancers. None of these new dancers would have ever even considered this as a career 30 years ago, because of all the negative stigma that was given to exotic dancers and strip clubs. It still exists, but not nearly like it was many years ago.
    OK, ask your favorite very beautiful, non-stigmatized striper if she puts "exotic dancer" on her resume when she applies for that real world job...not likely. Sorry but I sounds like you are writing the brochure blurb for some exotic dancer academy or something here. If by public acceptance you mean MTV rap videos and morons like Paris Hilton buying stripper poles well, I guess you may have a point but, frankly, this is the kind of "acceptance" I think the industry can do without.

    Like CO I spent the weekend in a couple of Providence clubs and was hard pressed to find any women, on a Saturday night, that I wanted to spend my money on. I know the mid west is generally a few years behind the east and west coasts when it comes to trends but I can't believe things are THAT different. I'm in Chicago this week. What club should I be visiting to find some the the ladies of whom you speak?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by casaubon1 View Post
    Amidst all the "Decline and Fall of the Stripper Empire" comments, this point is worth emphasizing.

    While the "approved" grinding LD may not have existed in the 1970s, the *lots of contact* champagne hustle sure did. Customer buys dancer a drink and they head off to a dark corner, dancer lays on serious pitch for a bottle of champagne. Don't ask what kind of persuasion was going on under the tablecloth.

    I think each generation finds its own way to do basically the same thing.
    Yes, the contact thing was definitely NOT happening out on the floor in the 70's but the drink hustle and promise of prostitution is what pretty much drove Boston's infamous combat zone during that time period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
    Double team! 2 latinas with big tits!!

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    Senior Member Lio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    I admit that I've only been to ten or so clubs and they have all been around Chicago or in Wisconsin. As Dottie Rebel wrote "beautiful face and a hot body", these are the most important features of a quality dancer. I think most men would agree with that statement. Next thing I look for is stage presence and dancing skills. Then finally comes intelligence and communication skills. I would say that about half the dancers I talk to are ether in college or have already graduated. I met a couple of dancers who were in law school. Just so happens I went to law school and I could easily tell they were becoming lawyers. The number of educated women working as dancers twenty years ago would have never compared to todays standards. As for physical beauty I find that most of the dancers are pleasing to the eyes and I always enjoy going out to a club. In the past ten years I have seen no decline in the number of fine looking dancers. There are some who shouldn't be on stage but thats just the way it has always been. My expectations of what to find in quality dancers could also be lower than some of you, but Casual Observers seems a bit over the top. Zero out of fifty met his criteria, those are some pretty high standards.

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    Featured Member Wwanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Quote Originally Posted by jaizaine View Post
    I never knew that prostitution was illegal in the US until I found out on SW.
    jaizaine's comment may seem odd to a lot of Americans who think that it is "normal" or conventional for prostitution to be illegal, but in fact much of the world finds the notion surprising and odd. I once had my p4p (play-for-pay) partner of the evening in a Melbourne brothel essentially call me a liar to my face when I described to her the activities of vice cops and such in the US. She said something along the lines that "everyone knows" that Americans are obssessed with their rights as individuals, that (for example) they insist on being able to own lots of guns of all sorts etc, that they worship free enterprise and that it was blatantly obvious that they would never put up with the police intruding into their sex lives or their sex businesses.

    Do you think that fact makes people seeking extras go to strip clubs and try to get them there?
    Definitely so (imo)!

    More on the main topic of this thread, although I can't recall exactly when, I believe that the modern grinding, high-contact (lap dance) version of PDs originally became popular in "mainstream" SCs in a few places, notably Toronto (The Brass Rail) and Tampa (Mons Venus) as best I recall, and then spread widely through the US over a few years. This was maybe in the late '80s? I say "mainstream" because there were a few clubs in a few places (e.g., The Harmony Theatre in NYC or the clubs on The Block in Baltimore) which had been very high contact for much longer, starting I-don't-know-when but decades earlier. However, these were essentially a form/venue of prostitution and were understood to be so by all concerned. The women who worked in them and the guys who patronized them were not really a part of the same "community" of dancers and customers one saw in other SCs at the time, for the most part.

    -Ww
    "At this moment what more need we seek?
    As the Truth eternally reveals itself,
    This very place is the Lotus Land of Purity,
    This very body is the Body of the Buddha."
    - Zazen Wasan

  24. #24
    God/dess Casual Observer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    My expectations of what to find in quality dancers could also be lower than some of you, but Casual Observers seems a bit over the top.
    Well, take it as you will, but I've been clubbing longer than some of the girls working SCs have been alive at this point, so while my anecdotal experience is just that--anecdotal, if you take what other experienced people have to say into consideration (Doc-C, Yoda, Ww, et al), I'm far from being melodramatic or alarmist.

    Or maybe we just have a gross disparity with regard to what constitutes a hot chick.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

  25. #25
    God/dess Bridgette's Avatar
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    Default Re: The history of grinding during a PD

    Mast, for the most part, you just took an overly long time to write what I and CO had already said. Less money to spend, media, changing expectations, blah blah blah. Yeah, prostitution has always been around in some way either in or near stripclubs. JUST NOT NEARLY AS MUCH say, 10 years ago as now.

    In CO's defense on his high expectations, I've been to Providence and he's right. Lio's stripclub experience is obviously quite limited. 30 years or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheno View Post
    When you lead a nontraditional life don't try to measure it with traditional milestones.

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