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Thread: Ohio Senate Bill 16

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    Member EvilSyn's Avatar
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    Default Ohio Senate Bill 16

    The Senate has passed a 6 foot rule, and a ton of other regulations that would give Ohio the strictest laws in the country.
    It would put alot of us in to the poor house so to speak, it is crazy to me to think that this can happen..
    If any of you can take the time to go to Stopthehouse.com to let the state of Ohio know this can not be accepted.
    It is Senate Bill 16, and they could vote as early as some time this week..
    Thanks for any help and support..
    There is no better buzz then busting a nut !!!

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    wtf?
    " (2) No patron knowingly shall touch any employee while that employee is nude or seminude, or touch the clothing or costume of any employee while that employee is nude or seminude; " how can one help that, some guys are dickheads and touchy!

    So what you can only dance until midnight then it just turns into a bar?! this is so weird!! Sorry for Ohio girls!! I dont have time to read all of it right now but I will tonight!!

    Edit: I cant do anything about it tho because I'm in MD/DC/VA... I will contact my friend in Ohio and ask them to do something!! Sorry ladies!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    This is pure Fascism. This is totally unconstitutional.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    This whole B.S. was started by a Fascist based Theocracy group aka Phil Burress Citizens For Community Values www.ccv.org Hope the house votes this down or the governor doesn't sign... Even if governor signs it there is a good chance it will be ruled unconstitutional. The Missouri governor signed a similiar bill into law last year and it was overturned by a district judge and also The Missouri Supreme Court ruled it UNCONSTITUTIONAL. See other thread on this topic. http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88298
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-25-2007 at 03:36 AM.

  5. #5
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Um, it's wrong and it sucks but it sounds perfectly constitutional to me. It wouldn't be okay for the federal government to pass such a law, but local governments have a lot more freedom with what kinds of laws they can pass. That's why different communities can pass laws in keeping with their distinct local values. I don't know whether this violates the Ohio state constitution, but it doesn't violate the federal one.

    I agree that it sucks though. CCV is an evil organization and those fuckheads need to find something better to do. I hope you guys can fight this.

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    It is unconstitutional because it violates Freedom of Expression under the First Amendment. There is no legitimate rationale for the restriction as studies in Fulton County and other areas conducted by Daniel Linz clearly show no evidence of secondary effects with nude bars. Nude Dancing is protected speech and is not subject to community standards review as it isn't the same as obscenity.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    Um, it's wrong and it sucks but it sounds perfectly constitutional to me. It wouldn't be okay for the federal government to pass such a law, but local governments have a lot more freedom with what kinds of laws they can pass. That's why different communities can pass laws in keeping with their distinct local values. I don't know whether this violates the Ohio state constitution, but it doesn't violate the federal one.

    I agree that it sucks though. CCV is an evil organization and those fuckheads need to find something better to do. I hope you guys can fight this.
    It is often not constitutional when the state can't prove a direct link between the perceived "negative secondary effects" theories and how it will prevent crime by remainining 6 foot from a customer, closing at midnight etc. Here are some examples of recent court rulings, a Missouri judge and Supreme Court ruled a similiar STATEWIDE law unconstitutional just last year...
    http://www.gazette.net/stories/04190...50_32322.shtml
    http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/news_events_1.htm
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-25-2007 at 04:48 AM.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Quote Originally Posted by liberator View Post
    It is unconstitutional because it violates Freedom of Expression under the First Amendment. There is no legitimate rationale for the restriction as studies in Fulton County and other areas conducted by Daniel Linz clearly show no evidence of secondary effects with nude bars. Nude Dancing is protected speech and is not subject to community standards review as it isn't the same as obscenity.

    This is true in many instances, but if the clubs are unfortunate to get judges like Scalia or Thomas there chances of winning are very slim, and with the makeup of the current US Supreme Court it is 50-50 at best.
    Here is a PRO CLUB "Secondary Effects" study that should be used by ANY club attorney in ANY STATE, although it may be construed to be more relevant in Indiana! BTW, Daniel Linz was also involved in this study.
    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/maps/da...bryant2001.pdf
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-25-2007 at 05:30 AM.

  9. #9
    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Dancing is definitely protected free expression, but nudity is a grey area, and local governments have every right to prohibit touching. To be fair they should prosecute the one who does the touching, rather than the one who is touched, but I won't hold my breath for that one.

    That's Ohio for you, anyway.

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    limited first amendment protection for (semi) nude dancing, as well as the 'negative secondary effects' doctrine, stem from Erie v PAPS ... which pre-dates the present 'conservative crescendo'. You can blame Sandra Day O'Connor ! Point being that when it comes to US politics versus anti-dance club laws, neither liberals or conservatives are willing to take a strong position in support of strip clubs and 'strippers'.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    limited first amendment protection for (semi) nude dancing, as well as the 'negative secondary effects' doctrine, stem from Erie v PAPS ... which pre-dates the present 'conservative crescendo'. You can blame Sandra Day O'Connor ! Point being that when it comes to US politics versus anti-dance club laws, neither liberals or conservatives are willing to take a strong position in support of strip clubs and 'strippers'.
    Actually, if you read this study
    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/maps/da...bryant2001.pdf
    you will find that both Sandra Day Oconner and David Souter left plenty of room for the clubs to dispute the "negative secondary effects" theories in Erie v PAPS and also just what type of evidence is ADMISSIBLE to prove these theories... This study was done in Fort Wayne, Indiana where it is a STATEWIDE LAW to have PASTIES-thus not really nude dancing, and probably one reason why no legislation has been proposed in Indiana since 2003. In fact many courts have ruled that unless the city/state can PROVE A CAUSE-EFFECT relationship between stripclubs (completely nude or otherwise) and the link to the perceived negative "secondary effects" theories, then it is ruled UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Another example of this is a recent court ruling here. http://www.gazette.net/stories/04190...50_32322.shtml
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-25-2007 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Info

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Interesting article here on SB 16
    http://blogs.clevescene.com/cnotes/2..._to_a_neig.php

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Laplover, I am aware that some federal courts have ruled for 'stays' or have ruled that secondary effects studies must be specifically targeted to the area which will be affected by the new anti-strip club law. However, I am also aware that not all federal circuits feel this way. At any rate, Justice O'Connor was indeed responsible for legitimizing the 'negative secondary effects' doctrine (despite the fact that the door was left open for clubowners to present evidence of their 'innocence' re actual local negative secondary effects if collected at their own expense). She was also responsible for establishing the doctrine that (semi) nude dancing does not have full first amendment protection ( thus conferring authority on local gov'ts to ban topless / nude dancing altogether if they so choose) ... which if I remember the case transcript correctly boiled down to Justice O'Connor stating that a dancer was capable of transmitting the same erotic message whether she was wearing a bikini or topless or totally nude.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Laplover, I am aware that some federal courts have ruled for 'stays' or have ruled that secondary effects studies must be specifically targeted to the area which will be affected by the new anti-strip club law. However, I am also aware that not all federal circuits feel this way. At any rate, Justice O'Connor was indeed responsible for legitimizing the 'negative secondary effects' doctrine (despite the fact that the door was left open for clubowners to present evidence of their 'innocence' re actual local negative secondary effects if collected at their own expense). She was also responsible for establishing the doctrine that (semi) nude dancing does not have full first amendment protection ( thus conferring authority on local gov'ts to ban topless / nude dancing altogether if they so choose) ... which if I remember the case transcript correctly boiled down to Justice O'Connor stating that a dancer was capable of transmitting the same erotic message whether she was wearing a bikini or topless or totally nude.
    You are correct Melonie. However, In Pap's, Justice O’Connor provides room for challenges, based on the collection of empirical evidence, to the assertions made by municipalities regarding a relationship between adverse secondary effects and nude dancing. She noted that the adult business in question in Pap's (Kandyland) could have challenged the city of Erie’s assertion that nudity led to ill effects, but did not do so. This leaves room for the introduction of secondary effects evidence, by businesses both in city council hearings and in any subsequent court litigation.
    In order to remain consistent with the Supreme Court's holding in Pap's, lower courts will be required to consider the methodological legitimacy of evidence of a relationship between negative secondary effects and the subject businesses collected both by governments and by those business owners who attempt to challenge government ordinances restricting their establishments.
    In evaluating the admissibility of this evidence, the courts are best served by turning to standards laid out in Daubert for the admissibility of scientific evidence. The application of such standards, bolstered by Justice Souter's opinion in Pap's, may force courts to reject studies that have been previously relied upon as evidence of negative secondary effects, and require new, more methodologically sound, studies to demonstrate the necessity for regulations directed at the exotic dance industry. The courts should be mindful of the criteria laid out above for collecting empirical evidence in a methodologically sound manner. Specifically, only evidence obtained using relatively closely matched comparison and study areas, or a comparable procedure, may be acceptable.

    WE NEED MORE DAVID SOUTER/RUTH GINSBERG CLONES ON THE SUPREME COURT, & LESS OF THE SCALIA & THOMAS TYPES!
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-25-2007 at 07:12 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Will you keep us updated about the outcome of this, I want to know but know I'll forget if it isn't brought up in here... sorry I have however been telling everyone about it and they're appalled... my OH friends are protesting it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

    Disclaimer - I DO NOT EDIT MY COMMENTS
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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    My best read on the direction of such new laws is tied to the willingness of groups like the ACLU to intervene on the basis of constitutional rights and protection of freedoms. Unfortunately, since the PAPS decision was handed down, the ACLU hasn't involved itself in a single 'strip club' case (to the best of my knowledge anyhow). Also, politicians of every political persuasion invariably run for cover when asked to publically take a position that is 'pro-strip clubs'. Thus any public protest on the part of dancers and/or clubowners will most likely result in either no effect whatsoever, or actually playing into the hands of the backers of the new law.

    Based on experience in other states, the one factor that could make a difference is Ohio strip club owners banding together and digging deep in their own pockets to finance some high powered appeal attorneys, researchers, expert witnesses etc. If they can pull this off, as recently happened in Manhattan, then their expenditures and ensuing legal actions can throw a monkeywrench into the works. If they don't pull this off, as recently happened in Houston, then the law will be enacted and increasingly enforced.

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    I think the best chance of getting this legislation overturned (if it passes the house and signed into law by the Governor), is refuting the often irrelevant, outdated and bogus negative "secondary effects" theories that the religious fanactics use as a legal guise to further their moral agenda... If indeed the clubs have more police runs, more crime, etc. than that of other establishments then the government can impose these regulations. This should have to be proven IMHO. As noted in this thread, some Federal Courts have ruled in favor of the clubs based upon the inability to prove a cause-effect relationship. The lawmakers don't have a lot of legal ground to stand on in most instances without the "Secondary Effects Doctrine", which unfortunately has been abused/misconstrued by the attorneys & some judges as a guise for the religious right to further their UNIQUE ideas of what everyone elses "morality" should be in THEIR Utopian world.
    Updated info here:
    http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/20...ubs_grows.html
    Last edited by laplover69; 04-26-2007 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Info

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    Looks like the clubs have one this round. Hooray for freedom and death to the Fascist Theocrats such as CCV! http://www.foxtoledo.com/dsp_story.c...estTimeout=500

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    ^^^ properly placed political contributions are a wonderful thing LOL !!!

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    www.lp.org please note we do have a pro-strip club position revolving around both Freedom of Speech and Private Property Rights. You can refute the bogus claims by governments regarding secondary effects by citing the 1997 Fulton County Georgia study which showed far less crime at nude bars than other bars and no decrease in property values or neighborhood blight in areas surrounding the clubs. Google "Fulton County Secondary Effects Studies" Daniel Linz has conducted numerous studies which refute the govt claims of negative secondary effects.

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    Veteran Member A.n.a.l.a.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    this was in this week's cleveland's scene paper in response to an article last week. the article title and date is mentioned in the letter.
    i took out her name...
    ---------
    Touch Me Not
    Dancer dreams of a grope-free workplace: I read your recent article "Relocating Strippers to a Neighborhood Near You" [C-Notes, clevescene.com, April 24]. I'm a dancer, and like many dancers, I support Senate Bill 16.

    Strip clubs can stay open if it becomes law. Similar laws are enforced in Oregon and Washington, where the sex industry is alive and well. Like any other industry, the people who patronize our clubs after midnight can very easily adapt to earlier hours.

    The resistance of industry leaders has nothing to do with the well-being, safety, and ability of dancers to make a living. Creating a law that bars patrons from touching dancers would go a very long way in protecting us from violence, which is seen as part of the job by managers, law enforcement, and a significant segment of the public.
    -------
    how exactly would that work though? how do the clubs operate in oregon and washington? and why can't strip clubs close at like 2 am like regular clubs vs 12 midnight? most dancers don't make their money on stage, right? so if there's a spacial rule of that much space, what then? and ummm i don't think there's in place large enough to enforce a 6-foot minimum distance. not unless only like 5-10 people are allowed in the club at a time... i'm confused

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    ^^^ well, what usually happens when such laws are enacted is this. Clubs and dancers that actually follow the letter of the law see fewer customers and even lower levels of customer spending. Clubs and dancers that 'bend' the law and continue to provide the contact that customers are seeking see their income levels remain the same or actually increase. Of course, their legal fees also increase as some risk of a 'bust' now exists - but usually it is only the dancers who face actual negative effects if and when they are busted (i.e. being charged with a sexually related misdemeanor).

    In fact, the actual end result of such anti-dance club ordinances and subsequent busts is that some dancers quickly figure out that being busted for dancing too close to a customer really carries exactly the same negative legal effects as being busted for giving HJ's, BJ's or FS (they're all sexually related misdemeanors). Thus some girls figure out that they may as well be earning big bucks by really flouting the law in between busts !

    Ironically, the extra money they earn allows the 'dirty' girls to hire a high-powered attorney to represent them - whereas 'clean' dancers who aren't earning as much money because they're not offering HJ's, BJ's or FS must depend on the club's attorney to represent them for free. This often results in the 'dirty' dancers having a better chance of having their charges dropped in court and a clean record, whereas the 'clean' dancers busted for simply dancing too close to a customer wind up with a plea bargain and a black mark on their criminal record !!!

    But the bottom line is that there are a whole lot of clubs in a whole lot of cities where the average degree of contact that dancers must provide in order to convince customers to spend money on private dances is actually against the law already. Thus the law itself doesn't really matter in a practical sense - only it's enforcement (or lack thereof).

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    Veteran Member laplover69's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16

    The CCV is now attempting to gather more signatures to put this issue on the ballot. here is info from their website www.ccv.org
    Although the Ohio General Assembly continues to work towards passage of Senate Bill 16, the Community Defense Act, it did not pass by the May 2 deadline established by the Constitution for legislation that comes to the Body by initiative petition. CCV believes that it eventually will be passed and we expect it to become law and we are working towards that end.

    Until that time, there is now a 90-day window beginning on May 2 in which we can collect additional signatures on a Supplementary Initiative Petition to place the law before the voters in the event that it is not passed in an acceptable form.

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    Default Re: Ohio Senate Bill 16


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