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Thread: how do you deal with death?

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    God/dess Roulette's Avatar
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    how do you deal with death?

    My grandmother has had cancer for a very short time and it's all over. Her liver is not working really at all as of yesterday. I dont know how to digest it. I am going to see her this weekend for the first time in years and it will probably be the last time I ever see her alive. I am totally scared and nervous for various reasons and I just dont know how to handle this whole situation...

    here are the factoids floating around in my brain right now

    -I dont care one way or the other if she dies. I also feel guilty and bad about this.
    -We have no relationship. I was born out of wedlock and she's Irish Catholic. My whole family is the family black sheep.
    -I dont know how to tell my father I love him and feel bad that his mother is about to die.
    -I dont know how to talk to her. She cant hear very well and I cant be the same person when I have to either repeat myself or talk louder than I usually do.
    -I feel bad because I'd rather spend the weekend seeing my boyfriend who I havent seen in a few weeks and my best friend who is finally back from college

    If anyone has any advice on how to talk to her I think that's what I'm really scurred of. I dont know how to talk to people who are going to live for like a week, tops. what to do?
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  2. #2
    AlexxaHex
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Jeeezus!

    I'd be all confused too! I don't envy you at all in this situation.
    It's hard to say how you should act or react...but don't feel guilty for not having feelings that you don't have! First, give yourself a break - it's okay to not feel attached to people you're related to, especially if you aren't close to them. There are people in my family that I wouldn't really be too upset about losing. I also consider myself a very sensitive person and the people I am attached to I'd be devastated to lose. It's okay to feel the way you do.
    Mentally let go of the differences between you if you can. I know that your religion's going to be the last thing on grandma's mind during her last days. Help her connect to her own god if you want to. Just being there is showing that you care. Ask her if she needs or wants you to do anything for her. Otherwise, sometimes silence and understanding might be the best thing for both of you.

    As for being there for your dad, there isn't anything that you can say to make him feel better. Losing a parent has got to be extremely difficult (I wouldn't know yet). Just let him know you are there for him too. Ask him if he wants to talk about it. If he doesn't, again, your presence there probably means a lot to him.

    Good luck with everything!

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Thanks Alexxa for responding. It would be a lot easier and I forgot to mention my step mother... She makes me feel guilty about not being there for my dad because "He needs you to let him know that you love him and that you love his mother, it's important you let him know you love her [insert real name here], you have no idea how much it will mean to him"

    I can fake emotions with people I dont know easy as pie, but when it comes to people I do knw, and also care about I can't and I dont care for my grandmother, she was nothing but mean to my dad and my family.

    Also No one in my family likes my step mother. She is... very loud and overbearing as well as a little dumb. She makes me crazy and feel very violent, and I am dreading going up there for my grandmother and having it turn into a bitchfest with my stepmother because I am all out of rope for her insanity. I'm a little scared I'll hit her and blow up. Sorry I'm venting all this, I just dont know what to think or do right now and I dont feel like talking to my real life frainds about it for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    ^agree. Dont feel guilty. You weren't close to her, you just happen to be related to her. Of course you want to live your life with your boyfriend and friend, and not spend time with a woman you hardly know.

    As for how to talk your dad, I know sometimes, when there's a lot of emotion going around, its almost like I lose my voice, and can't get the words out. Maybe try writing a letter? That way you can sit and think of exactly what you want to say. And really, writing "Dad...I love you, and I'm sorry you're mom is dying, it must be so hard. I just want you to know I'm here for you" is plenty. You dont have to pretend you care a great deal for her. But you're really there to support your dad.

    Another thing...often when people lose someone, especially in drawn out deaths like cancer, people like to talk about their loved ones when they were young and vibrant. So maybe ask you dad a few questions, like "what was grandmom like when you were growing up?" or "was she strict" most likely once he gets talking, he'll go off on tangents about her and his life, and he'll feel better just talking about what she used to be.

    And as for talking to her, dont worry too much. You said you weren't very close, she wont be looking to you for any speeches for comfort. Just your presence is enough. If you are comfortable with it, touch her hand or shoulder, even when you just say something as simple as "hey grandmom". Just tell her you're sorry she is sick, but that she has family that loves her.

    Really, you just being there is enough. Many people on their deathbed have a grreat deal of guilt about how they've treated family members...there's a good chance she feels bad for her treatment of you, so you being there can be enough to ease her conscience and make her transition to death easier. If not, and she is one of those stubborn types, well, you made the effort.

    Good luck to you!

  5. #5
    Kaylinn
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Wow. How odd. My grandmother just died today( my dad's mother)

    And it's almost your same situation. We weren't close at all. I haven't seen her in probably 7 years. I a adopted, and she is the only one who never really accepted me as family. She would actually introduce us like this "This is Mike's son, Mikey, and his adopted daughter, Shana." She's the only one who never really treated me as real family.

    Anyway, I am being supportive of my dad. He knows we wewen't close, he understands. But I love my dad, he lost his mother, so I am being as supportive and respectful for him. I cant attend the funeral since I live on the other side of the country, but I'm going to send flowers. I've called every day to check on her progress. She had pneomonia and heart failure, and her body just gave out.

    Don't feel guilty, just show yrou support and respect.

    Go in to see her, even just out of respect for your dad. You don't even have t say anything, just give her a hug and be there.

    Good luck

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    God/dess Lysondra's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    When it comes to death I am always the person who talks about things like it's not happening or hasn't happened. I find it actually makes people happy.. there's SOMEONE not talking about how they're going to die. Just pretend she isn't dying. Play cards with her, tell your dad you love him and you're sorry that he's going to be upset when she dies (not that you're sorry she died)... or don't even talk about it. Discuss something not death.

    At least it always makes me feel better.


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    Veteran Member Ferret's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Death is a fate that awaits us all. All I want is to pass away with a sense of dignity and free of terrible pain and maybe it's the same thinking she has. You present yourself as a thoughtful and truthful person. I do not think you can do anymore than be the person you are...it's a beautiful thing.

    If you choose not to go then be at ease with yourself but give a call. You will not need excuses to expalin why you are not there. Just be as honest with them as you are with us.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by kandie_kitten View Post
    As for how to talk your dad, I know sometimes, when there's a lot of emotion going around, its almost like I lose my voice, and can't get the words out. Maybe try writing a letter? That way you can sit and think of exactly what you want to say. And really, writing "Dad...I love you, and I'm sorry you're mom is dying, it must be so hard. I just want you to know I'm here for you" is plenty. You dont have to pretend you care a great deal for her. But you're really there to support your dad.

    Another thing...often when people lose someone, especially in drawn out deaths like cancer, people like to talk about their loved ones when they were young and vibrant. So maybe ask you dad a few questions, like "what was grandmom like when you were growing up?" or "was she strict" most likely once he gets talking, he'll go off on tangents about her and his life, and he'll feel better just talking about what she used to be.
    Thanks. I think I'll write him a letter on the way up (It'll be like a 7 hour train ride - wtf else will have to do? But as for talking to him about his grandmother or anything He didnt know her. Both his parents moved to the states as adults from Ireland w/no family here. And as for him growing up we've talked about it and it just makes me kinda hate my grandparents.... So I don't know what to do with that. Also my dad isnt a talker, and he def isn't a talker about emotions. He's very CIA (Catholic Irish American about it, and I am too to a degree because of being raised by him. So real conversations always end u being a little weird. Also this just occured to me. I have never seen my dad cry and if he does I think I'm going to lose it.


    Thanks Kaylinn... your story reminds me a lot of thie girl I know and he name is similar to yours... weird. And I'm sorry you had to go through something like this too.



    Quote Originally Posted by lilithmorrigan View Post
    When it comes to death I am always the person who talks about things like it's not happening or hasn't happened. I find it actually makes people happy.. there's SOMEONE not talking about how they're going to die. Just pretend she isn't dying. Play cards with her, tell your dad you love him and you're sorry that he's going to be upset when she dies (not that you're sorry she died)... or don't even talk about it. Discuss something not death.

    At least it always makes me feel better.
    I am usually like this but I dont see it happening this weekend because of the expectations of my family I will come off as being a jackass. I know it. but yeah you and i are very similar in this respect I think. thanks though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferret View Post
    Death is a fate that awaits us all. All I want is to pass away with a sense of dignity and free of terrible pain and maybe it's the same thinking she has. You present yourself as a thoughtful and truthful person. I do not think you can do anymore than be the person you are...it's a beautiful thing.

    If you choose not to go then be at ease with yourself but give a call. You will not need excuses to expalin why you are not there. Just be as honest with them as you are with us.
    uhm... yeah I know death awaits us all. as people we are all bound together by the fact that we both come into and leave this world alone and those are the only certainties in life. The person that i am, though I think I'm pretty rad is not in any way ok with my grandmother - I dont know where I'm going with this, nor where exactly you were going either, bvut thank you.... And yeah it isnt a choice about going or not. I gotta go, at least for my dad. The train ticket it bought and I'm leaving friday morning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Ah I see...yeah, that makes things more difficult and awkward.

    But then, you dont have to worry about saying much at all. I still think a simple letter is a good idea, especially if deep conversations are uncomfortable, to let him know you care about him and are sorry for his grief.

    Otherwise, there isn't much else for you to do or say. Just being there, in quiet support, is enough to help your dad.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    You sort of sound like me when my dad's mom (my grandmother) died. His dad (my grandfather) died almost a year later and I didn't get the notice or the closure that I did with my grandma... So, here's my advice (also, my father's side of the family isn't exactly touchy-feely either.. actually, not at all, heh):

    1. Even though it's hard, tell everyone how much you love them. It's an exception.
    2. Tell her what you need to tell her (as long as it's nice). She may not remember it for long, but it means something... it really does. My grandmother died of alzheimers and I told her how wonderful my dad was and how that was because of her and how much everyone loved her.
    3. Be there for your family. Even if you're just sitting there in silence.
    4. Don't feel bad that you'd rather be somewhere else. I felt the same way. Of course you want to escape this pain and pretend it isn't there... that's human.

    I got all teary-eyed as I typed that... Family is important. It sucks that we can't chose them, but they're our FAMILY. Even if you don't like them, it's important to pretend for the good of everyone else whom you love.
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    Featured Member Hatshepsut's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    First step: Instead of feeling bad about feeling bad in addition to feeling bad, concentrate on just feeling bad.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bella21 View Post
    You sort of sound like me when my dad's mom (my grandmother) died. His dad (my grandfather) died almost a year later and I didn't get the notice or the closure that I did with my grandma... So, here's my advice (also, my father's side of the family isn't exactly touchy-feely either.. actually, not at all, heh):

    1. Even though it's hard, tell everyone how much you love them. It's an exception.
    2. Tell her what you need to tell her (as long as it's nice). She may not remember it for long, but it means something... it really does. My grandmother died of alzheimers and I told her how wonderful my dad was and how that was because of her and how much everyone loved her.
    3. Be there for your family. Even if you're just sitting there in silence.
    4. Don't feel bad that you'd rather be somewhere else. I felt the same way. Of course you want to escape this pain and pretend it isn't there... that's human.

    I got all teary-eyed as I typed that... Family is important. It sucks that we can't chose them, but they're our FAMILY. Even if you don't like them, it's important to pretend for the good of everyone else whom you love.
    #1 - dunno if I can, but I will try.
    #2 - She isnt forgetful, just cancerous, stubborn, and in pain.
    #3 - yeah. I think silence will be my m.o. this weekend.
    #4 - there isnt pain tho... I really dont care and when she's gone I wont really mind.

    Also my grandfather has parkinsons and he understands things but cant really communicate. I dont know how to talk to him either. le poo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

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    God/dess Bella21's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roulette View Post
    #1 - dunno if I can, but I will try.
    #2 - She isnt forgetful, just cancerous, stubborn, and in pain.
    #3 - yeah. I think silence will be my m.o. this weekend.
    #4 - there isnt pain tho... I really dont care and when she's gone I wont really mind.

    Also my grandfather has parkinsons and he understands things but cant really communicate. I dont know how to talk to him either. le poo.
    I cried when my grandma died and I cried the most when I got off the phone (she lived in NC) with her. After that, it was surprisingly easy for me to to get back to normal life. I'm still embarrassed about that (considering what my dad went through). I think that's how it is when people who aren't involved in your everyday life die.

    I'm going to sound like a selfish bitch when I say this... but...:

    YOU are important. They're dying. I'm not taking away from that... but YOU have to live with how you supported your family through this for the rest of your life. I don't know your situation so I'm sure you'll do what's right but keep in mind that you'll remember it.
    Last edited by Bella21; 06-13-2007 at 10:59 PM.
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  15. #15
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    I agree with lilithmorrigan. At times like these, it's often best to talk to people casually, normally. Obviously, if they have dying words to say, it's their stage. But you've been in another place, and if the conversation allows, it's a good time to catch them up on your life and the mundane things that we humans seem to take so much interest in.

    The tough part really comes after the death. People deal with death very differently. Your stepmother sounds like the type who may not deal with it well. If that's so, you're about to find out how nasty she can really be. Your father may say things that sounds hurtful. Please remember that it's all part of the grief process. It can be worse than being a mean drunk. A good rule is to just take it, however much it hurts, and then forgive everything that's said in the first six months after the death.

    Really, for those who understand, your simple presence is as meaningful as anything else. As much as anything, a funeral is for the people who respect the survivors to be able to say, "Oh, man, I am so sorry." If you can offer some genuine comfort and sympathy, that goes a long way at a time like this.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    First, I don't really see anything wrong with not feeling all that bad about someone related to you, but that you have no relationship with. People die. Grief has a purpose, but if we felt it a significant amount of it over everyone that died, no matter how distant, we'd be unable to function.

    Second, it's not your job to fix everything, or everyone in the world, or to make everything right. It's not any of our jobs to do that. Let go on this one. No need to plan ahead. Everyone has what they need to deal with their lives at that moment. Your dad is your parent, you don't need to make things right for him. You'll find out what you need to say to him, if anything, when the time comes. As for your grandma, she's had a lifetime to prepare and make her peace. Let go... you'll be surprised, you'll know what feels right when you are actually in the situation.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roulette View Post
    She makes me feel guilty about not being there for my dad because "He needs you to let him know that you love him and that you love his mother, it's important you let him know you love her ..."
    not true. it really doesn't matter one way or another what you thought of her as long as you're there for your dad, and if when you see her you try to be as comforting, natural, and compassionate as possible. She may want to talk about it, you never know.

    Feelings aren't obligations. This is a woman to whom you were close only in title. If there wasn't a real relationship there, no one expects you to pretend there was only because she is dying. Just be prepared to comfort your dad in his time of need... and yes, he may indeed cry.

    When my grandfather died, I felt like you & Kaylinn... didn't know quite what to feel, except guilt for not being plagued with despair... we didn't really have a relationship, I'd seen him deteriorate from alzheimer's, he was somewhat of an intolerant miser, and I witnessed so many phone fights between him and my mom... it was almost a relief for me when he passed... mostly because i knew how stressful it was for my mother.

    I was the one who took the call from the nursing home, too... and had to tell everyone.. I really didn't know what to feel. I just really tried to be there for my mom, and at the funeral I found out I really missed out on knowing a wonderful person... before my grandfather's 1st wife (my mom's mom) died (he since remarried... no one liked her), he had been an open-minded, free-spirited, business minded caring young man... she died when my mom was 21, and he was never the same. So.... you never know what you may find out. Just be open to whatever happens, feel whatever you're feeling/not feeling, and be ready to take in the experience. You don't need to be an actress... just open-minded & supportive.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    My grandmother on my father's side died last year. I had not had much contact with her in the last 15 to 20 years, because of a fall out with my father, and she had met her great grandson only once. I had not spoken to my father in almost 20 years and he had never met his grandson. Mind you he had every opportunity to see him. He just didn't have the balls to step forward. Anyway....back on topic...

    I don't know if what I have to say will help at all (or even relates to your situation), but maybe there is something in here that will help you. I did go see her when she was still in the nursing home. It was awkward because my dad was there, but things really did work out fine. My son even played some Mozart on the piano for my grandma. That made her day (she use to teach music). It felt good to give her a little happiness near the end.

    When she was finally moved to a convalescent home I spent an entire night sitting with her (this was the last time I saw her alive). I am glad I did this as it gave closure to me on many things that had happened in my family. I also realized that she did not deserve being shut out of my life, because of the actions/inactions of my father. I did get to say good bye though.

    I do not know your entire situation, but in mine it did help mend some family issues. It also allowed me to remember good things about her. It is always better to remember good things. As far as what to say to your father. Tell him what you sincerely feel. He is your father and he will appreciate it (even if he doesn't say so). Times like this tend to bring families closer and mend differences. It did for me. I hope something in here helps you out.

    Take care.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    I wouldn't feel bad about not feeling all broken up over this and wanting to be elsewhere. Been there, done that. All four of my grandparents died when I was a young teen, and I wasn't close to them and didn't see them very much.

    I didn't cry or get all broken up when any of my grandparents died. I didn't feel close to them and they were at times like strangers.

    My grandparents greeted death as liberation from their misery and didn't care one way or another.

    The only thing that made me sad was to see my parents hurting. But even they knew that their parents were better off.

    The best response is to fake it. Act all broken up, don't say much (silence is golden), and act all sympathetic.

    I wouldn't say much to your dad, either. Talking too much just complicates things and you might wind up putting your foot in your mouth. Just act sympathetic and do a lot of head bowing at the funeral.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Bond View Post
    The best response is to fake it. Act all broken up, don't say much (silence is golden), and act all sympathetic.
    I have to say, this message struck a big NEGATIVE chord with me. Embyr had it right when she wrote " Feelings aren't obligations." If you are being paid, you may have to fake it from time to time, because sometimes we are paid to be an actor (e.g., to pretend to like a customer that is difficult to cope with), but in real life, particularly in those infrequent but paradigm shift moments, I see no need to fake it. I'm not saying be an ass, or intentionally discourteous or cause others more pain that are in pain, but we also don't need to try to fake emotions we aren't feeling.

    And I just attended my own mom's funeral less then 3 months ago. Many people barely knew her, yet they showed up to offer their support. Everyone was mostly honest and real, and we ended up have a lot of positive family re-connections among members who haven't seen or talked to each other in a long time. It really is okay to laugh, and to be happy to see others and remember the positives at a funeral. You just never know what's going to happen, but planning ahead, and missing it because you're so worried about pre-planning the impression you want to leave is a sure way to miss out on what is real. Faking it FTL.

    In any case, she is going to see her grandma and she is still alive. I think she needs to not plan ahead, be herself, and let what comes, come.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    I live my life "Ready to die" -Biggie Smalls
    Anytime im alive, i can die at any moment. I know the same goes for my family and friends, if they go before me i accept it. I miss em and all but its a part of life...we live and enjoy our lives and can die at any given moment.

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    I have to say, this message struck a big NEGATIVE chord with me. Embyr had it right when she wrote " Feelings aren't obligations." If you are being paid, you may have to fake it from time to time, because sometimes we are paid to be an actor (e.g., to pretend to like a customer that is difficult to cope with), but in real life, particularly in those infrequent but paradigm shift moments, I see no need to fake it. I'm not saying be an ass, or intentionally discourteous or cause others more pain that are in pain, but we also don't need to try to fake emotions we aren't feeling.

    I'm not saying to act like Meryl Streep, but she has to at least act in a way as to show respect to her parents and grandparents. Could you imagine if people acted the way they really felt. Very few people would show up at most funerals.

    Everyone fakes feelings and actions a good percentage of the time, and the biggest fakers are at funeral homes. Not that there's anything wrong with that, that's just human nature.

    William Shakespeare: "All the world is a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    thanks you guys for your responces, it really means a lot to me!! I'm going up tomorrow. I am not looking forward to this, but oh well, I guess I have to though. Ugh, yay rough weekends! I'll get back to you all after the weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

    Disclaimer - I DO NOT EDIT MY COMMENTS
    It hate to re-read things I write
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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    Well that was a surreal experience.

    from the time I got there to the time she died (sat night) she was never conscious. Our family rented a bed from the hospital so she was at home.

    My grandfather sat with her the entire time except when he was eating. I sat and talked to him for a little while. it wasn't nearly as weird as I thought it would be, although I started balling which was quite unexpected. I felt so bad for him, and when he said "what are we going to do without her?" I just lost it. When she did die I gave him a big long hug and he thanked me for being there. We had a priest or whatever the title is come and pray. That was weird. My whole family was raised and is Catholic except me... so they knew all the words and I sooo did not.

    I dont think I told my dad I love him but we spent "quality time" together playing darts and the night she died I invited him to take a walk with me while I had a smoke. It was nice.

    I could have shot my idiot stepmother. She wouldnt shut the fuck up after my grandmother died (or before actually) and it was bothering everyone... I kept thinking hello... you know that saying "silence is golden"?!?!?! yeah... it takes effect right now bitch! AAAAnd after I bought a pair of sweet leopard print maybe 4.5" heels and in front of my whole family and their neighbors she goes "Yeah she loves shoes!! especially heels! Why I dont know how she can walk in them. She has a pair with a clear heels and under the toes it's clear and it lights up when she walks... I bet they're about 6" tall, easy! and she has some black patent leather ones like that too. OOH and the boots! she has some skin tight thigh high shiny black boots, they have to be 6" tall too!! I just dont know how she does it!" I wanted to strangle her! Anyone with half a brain can put two and two together. Guess she doesn't have half a brain. I explained they were part of various Halloween costumes and that the clear ones were given to me by my eccentric friend and they don't even fit. Ugh. Didn't help that the day before I got these damn acrylic nails put on. and they're longer than I'd ever normally get but the woman doing my nails failed at life, and I got so frustrated with her I just gave up and let her do whatever the fuck she wanted.

    Ok yeah, all in all it was much better than anticipated. Thank you guys for all your help!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
    I just got hollered at by a CUTE guy, at dusk, in my car, in gym attire and hair. Word?
    Picaresque is the shit, I loooooves her!!!

    Disclaimer - I DO NOT EDIT MY COMMENTS
    It hate to re-read things I write
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Default Re: how do you deal with death?

    They say that the 3 things our culture doesn't teach us how to deal with, growing up, are Money, Sex and Death.

    There are a lot of books out there on death and dying, but I found the very best one to be one called WHO DIES by Stephen Levine. I think he and his wife run a place in AZ that's all about dying - the cool thing (and it's kind of Buddhist that way) is that it's all about how learning to deal with death can enhance living. Easier said than done, but still.

    When my mother died, who I was very close to, I found that I was a hundred times more prepared for the process and the aftermath of it, for having read this book. Even though your grandmother's spirit has passed on (so they say), the book might help with the next one (the subject has a funny way of returning, esp. as we get older).

    Good luck with all the family stuff.

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