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Thread: Pissed off at homophobia

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    And last, how is the parade doing any harm?
    When your political opposition uses--nay, thrives upon--photos and video footage of your parades for crafting their fundraising drives and producing recruitment propaganda, that's a problem for your community, whether you partake in the festivities or not. It's almost like guilt by association. This applies to most any cause, but historically it seems particularly egregious with regard to people in the GBLT community.
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  2. #77
    sun child
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    "Producing recruitment propaganda?"

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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    When your political opposition uses--nay, thrives upon--photos and video footage of your parades for crafting their fundraising drives and producing recruitment propaganda, that's a problem for your community, whether you partake in the festivities or not. It's almost like guilt by association. This applies to most any cause, but historically it seems particularly egregious with regard to people in the GBLT community.
    The problem is that this "footage" will always exist, and can always be used by the opposition....and frankly, what's the difference between two men in thongs kissing, and a hetero sexual couple in swimsuits at the beach making out?

    If you fight for equality with the condition that the "offensive material" will be kept behind closed doors...well then that's not really a fight for equality at all. That said, I'm not saying that the struggle for gay rights is about the right to engage in public sexual behaviour....but it is the fight to have the same rights and acceptance as heterosexuals...and much of what goes on during pride parades is an intentionally exagerated form of expressing the same rights that we heterosexuals take for granted.

    I can go out in public and hold hands with my wife without fear. I have no problem kissing her in a public park....sometimes I'll even give her a little grab-ass. For all the people who say "I have no problem with gays so long as they keep it in the bedroom"...well that's just hypocritical cause we bring our romance into our public lives every day. That's one of the reasons pride parades exist. Is it exagerated? Of course it is, but when you're trying to shift the very morals of society, it's generally more effective to shout instead of whispering.

  4. #79
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    1. I've never felt that racial, ethnic, or sexual preference pride was particularly justified. You're taking pride in something you didn't achieve. You were dropped into it. (Likewise, there's a smidgen of hypocrisy in it. I don't feel Mostly Causasian (Male) Pride, or Heterosexual Pride, but if I did, it would certainly be inappropriate in today's sensibilities to show it.)

    2. One can be a traditionalist and accept and embrace alternate lifestyles without being a bigot worthy of flogging. A person can readily accept someone's sexual preferences, employ that, form friendships, and still be uncomfortable with officially incorporating a particular relationship into our quasi-religious sanction of marriage. Now, they may be wrong and illogical about it, but they're necessarily a bigot.

    3. As noted before, the rationale taken again homosexual marriage is irrational when you consider the assaults that traditional marriage tolerates. The reasons for opening up alternate marriages far outweigh the rationales against.

    4. Opening up marriage to simply consenting adults does open up other possibilities, such as polygamous and incestuous marriages. Before you yell at this, hear me out. I cannot think of a solid argument in favor of "two consenting adults" that doesn't hold water for other adult relationships. "We believe in polygamy, we all love each other, we're not hurting anyone else, and we can't practice it legally, and the very system shuns us because of our beliefs. We're being denied human respect."

    5. Trying to promote strange and marginal behavior is fun for a parade but not the way to advance your ideal to the mainstream, and it perpetuates the sideshow impression. You think I'm bothered by having my young kids see two men in thongs making out on a float? Well, I'd be bothered by them seeing a man and a woman in thongs making out on a float, too. Hmmm... maybe I'll just take them to Disneyland that weekend (a company which recognizes homosexual unions, which I think is cool).

    6. Ultimately, the government should stay out of the marriage business unless there's a civil suit or child welfare involved. We get these deductions for getting married, and it's not logical, not in today's world. Traditional marriage is hopelessly broken, the government should abandon its sanctioning of it, and people should be left to their own personal and/or spiritual preferences and rituals to establish whatever relationship among each other that they wish to establish.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellob1976 View Post
    when you're trying to shift the very morals of society...
    I thought that's what the right-wingers were being criticized for. Some very rational people don't want their morals shifted.

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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    I thought that's what the right-wingers were being criticized for. Some very rational people don't want their morals shifted.
    There's some issues where people shouldn't have a choice. Nobody on this board would argue that the civil rights movement shouldn't have occurred, but back in the 60's there were plenty of folks whose "morals" were in stark opposition to equality for blacks and whites.

    There were even those "moderates" who said they had no problems with blacks, so long as they don't[insert: work at my job, live in my community, date my daughter, etc.]. A lot of these people were good-rational-hard- working people who just happened to be raised in a time when intolerance was the norm. That said, just because they had a good soul doesn't mean their patently wrong morals were entitled to deference or respect.

    Sometimes good people are wrong, and they need a swift kick in the ass to change their perspectives.

  6. #81
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckiCharm View Post
    Well whatever Jenny, all I was doing was posting my opinion, which I don't feel my opinion is wrong. We'll agree to disagree.
    Ohhhh... I'm sorry. I didn't realize that this was the one thread in which saying "it's just an opinion" made it sacrosanct and immune to criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Lame and typical deflection on your part, but the fact remains the same; as a minority group, you either want that "increased participation" of which you spoke in the broader context of the community, or you seek to separate and alienate yourselves collectively from that community. One is more eminently more productive than the other.
    On my part? That is so adorable considering the fact that you left out the rest of my post that dealt substantively with your point. I'm sorry, what was that expression? "Lame and typical deflection..."

    If you really want the other 90% of the population to believe you're just like them only slightly different, then show them. People do it all the time every day in ways large and small, but what flies for a parade in Key West might not exactly go over as well in West Texas.
    Well a) you're making the assumption that is what they want the other 90% of the population to believe, b) maybe it involves the weird notion of "acceptance of different lifestyles" rather than "No we can pretend to be straight." Anyway - this seems pretty moot to me. Pride parades are DEMONSTRABLY effective. Just because some self-loather friend of Hyde's finds them unpalatable doesn't change the fact that they are a) a great party b) bring in huge tourist dollars and c) have been generating good will from the straight population in the urban centres in which they take place for a good number of years now.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

  8. #83
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    1. I've never felt that racial, ethnic, or sexual preference pride was particularly justified. You're taking pride in something you didn't achieve. You were dropped into it. (Likewise, there's a smidgen of hypocrisy in it. I don't feel Mostly Causasian (Male) Pride, or Heterosexual Pride, but if I did, it would certainly be inappropriate in today's sensibilities to show it.)
    Perhaps it would make more sense if you thought of Pride as the opposite of Shame, and remember that Shame is a big part of the recent history of most of the groups to which you refer. It's hardly an event that is taking place in a historical vacuum.
    2. One can be a traditionalist and accept and embrace alternate lifestyles without being a bigot worthy of flogging. A person can readily accept someone's sexual preferences, employ that, form friendships, and still be uncomfortable with officially incorporating a particular relationship into our quasi-religious sanction of marriage. Now, they may be wrong and illogical about it, but they're necessarily a bigot.
    Disagree. I think that is exactly what makes you a bigot. Saying that "you're okay as long as you know your place and your place is not equal to our's."

    4. Opening up marriage to simply consenting adults does open up other possibilities, such as polygamous and incestuous marriages. Before you yell at this, hear me out. I cannot think of a solid argument in favor of "two consenting adults" that doesn't hold water for other adult relationships. "We believe in polygamy, we all love each other, we're not hurting anyone else, and we can't practice it legally, and the very system shuns us because of our beliefs. We're being denied human respect."
    No it doesn't. Because people are not being discriminated against in those cases. Or if they are it is discrimination in the loosest sense of the word, such that it is not legally useful (the same way murderers are discriminated against for being murderers). Whether or not you think marriage SHOULD be opened up to polys and incestuous unions does not change the fact that the legal rationale for gay marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    5. Trying to promote strange and marginal behavior is fun for a parade but not the way to advance your ideal to the mainstream, and it perpetuates the sideshow impression. You think I'm bothered by having my young kids see two men in thongs making out on a float? Well, I'd be bothered by them seeing a man and a woman in thongs making out on a float, too. Hmmm... maybe I'll just take them to Disneyland that weekend (a company which recognizes homosexual unions, which I think is cool).
    Well maybe that's why it's a parade and not a standard work uniform.
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Ohhhh... I'm sorry. I didn't realize that this was the one thread in which saying "it's just an opinion" made it sacrosanct and immune to criticism.
    No prob lol

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Perhaps it would make more sense if you thought of Pride as the opposite of Shame
    No, I think of it as "I'm proud of," and it doesn't make as much sense to me to think about it as an opposite of a negative. I don't take pride in my work because I'd be ashamed if I don't do it. Rather, I take pride in it because I accomplished something.

    It's hardly an event that is taking place in a historical vacuum.
    I do agree with that. It's a part of the oppressed (or repressed) getting their voice.

    Disagree. I think that is exactly what makes you a bigot. Saying that "you're okay as long as you know your place and your place is not equal to our's."
    We can disagree. But what you're saying that I'm saying is not what I'm saying.

    No it doesn't. Because people are not being discriminated against in those cases. ...does not change the fact that the legal rationale for gay marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    I don't see the differences, nor have they been explained to me. And I don't mean that as a challenge. I mean, quite literally, they haven't been explained to me. I've gotten the dissent opinion a lot but without an accompanying rationale.

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    God/dess LuckiCharm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Just one more thing...bigot is a really strong word. The protestors and the people screaming "faggot" in the streets are bigots...they are completly intolerable of certain groups of people because of who they are. People who simply don't condone something they don't believe in doesn't make them a bigot.

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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by jellob1976 View Post
    There's some issues where people shouldn't have a choice.
    You and James Dobson of the CCV should get along fabulously since you seem to think so much alike.

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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckiCharm View Post
    Just one more thing...bigot is a really strong word. The protestors and the people screaming "faggot" in the streets are bigots...they are completly intolerable of certain groups of people because of who they are. People who simply don't condone something they don't believe in doesn't make them a bigot.
    bigot
    n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions
    differing from his own



    Dictionary says no. *cough*


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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    No, I think of it as "I'm proud of," and it doesn't make as much sense to me to think about it as an opposite of a negative. I don't take pride in my work because I'd be ashamed if I don't do it. Rather, I take pride in it because I accomplished something.
    I didn't mean to imply that was the ONLY way of looking at Pride. Just a way that would make sense in this context. There is a reason "Pride" is the word associated with oppressed groups claiming their rights, and that is it.

    I don't see the differences, nor have they been explained to me. And I don't mean that as a challenge. I mean, quite literally, they haven't been explained to me. I've gotten the dissent opinion a lot but without an accompanying rationale.
    Polygamy is a little harder, because there are religious connotations which make for a more complicated argument (but one that is (demonstrably) hardly insurmountable as it also involves competing rights. Incest - it is not an issue of discrimination against an oppressed group. Gay marriage - it is. Laws prohibiting gay marriage discriminate against people simply for being gay. The argument was never "but we're not hurting anyone and we're adults" (although that is a counter argument). It was "this is illegal discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation." This thing with incest and polygamy is just an PR bullshit to lump gay in with the backwater deviants. Frankly, I'm a little surprised you fell for it.

    Further - where does this idea come from that incest is only illegal because gay marriage is illegal? I seriously doubt that was in the minds of the legislating body... like "Marriage between a man and a woman... well obviously, because otherwise we'd have brothers and sisters getting married." Where is the connection? I mean you say you've never gotten the rationale for the dissent - what is the rationale for the claim? Like a real rationale.

    We can disagree. But what you're saying that I'm saying is not what I'm saying.
    I think it is Jay. You're just using longer sentences to try to couch it in neutral terms probably because you know lots of people who are really nice except that... But there is no way to say "I don't think gays should be allowed to get married" without implicitly accepting that they are socially less valuable than heteros. If you think there is a way to say that, I'd love to hear it. There were a whole whack of people in the 1960s who might have thought that blacks should be employed at the same prices as whites, but still didn't want them straying off the drinking fountain, and lots of people in the 1930s who thought the chinese should be able to get employment within 100 meters of white women, but would be disgusted at the idea of an officiated relationship between them. I still think that's bigoted.
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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Yea...intolerant and not agreeing is two different things...*cough*

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    Default Re: Pissed off at homophobia

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckiCharm View Post
    Yea...intolerant and not agreeing is two different things...*cough*
    And not condoning and not agreeing are two different things as well. And you used the word condone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckiCharm View Post
    Yea...intolerant and not agreeing is two different things...*cough*
    Okay, this is true. I think maybe there is some disconnect here. Like there is "I personally find homosexuality disgusting, and don't think two men's genitals should ever be near each other, and I don't even let my doctor give me a rectal exam, but it's their choice and I don't believe in government mandated inequality, even if I find the exercise of that choice disgusting" and there is "It's okay... as long as there are strict government regulations ensuring that they never have the same rights and benefits as I do." One sounds pretty unpalatable, but one is actively seeking inequality. People shouldn't have the choice to actually deny other people basic human rights; that is just tyranny.

    But really - between the two, which one is intolerant and which one is not agreeing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilithmorrigan View Post
    And not condoning and not agreeing are two different things as well. And you used the word condone.
    Sorry- bad choice of words, my bad.

  19. #94
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    I thought some of the men that frequent strip clubs and are posting with distaste about gay pride parades might heed this info from wikipedia:

    One can set up a straw man in the following ways:
    1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
    2. Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy).
    3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
    4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
    5. Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.

    Not trying to make it personal…but anyone who has a problem with gay pride parades, gay pride month or gays in general has a big problem. You do find it icky (as Jenny said) so you set up a false argument where every gay man or woman is naked jiggling around fucking on the street. In front of children no less! Oh sure it is good and fine to be gay…but why do they have to act gay in public like that. Everyone should have the same rights. Unfortunately on this planet (especially this country) people are pretty attached to "traditional" roles of gender. I cannot hate you for it…but it is regressive. Gays should not have to have a PR campaign to be treated like human beings and that is not what gay pride week is about. Like CK already pointed out…it is about commemorating the Stonewall Riots and showing pride in who you are. It is not to piss off and alienate the general public. Surely you have heard of the Love Parade in Berlin. All kinds of kinky naked activities go on there but people do not cry about it. Sorry you guys saw two gay dudes in thongs and it made you shocked sick or flaccid. Not my problem. I bet it would be more palatable (again quoting Jenny) if it were two hot Playmates making out. You do not have to feel pride only when you accomplish something. Pride is a very relative term but in the case of gay pride it means mostly not being ashamed of who you fucking are and who you fucking love. It is because you think that two dudes being gay and fucking each other in the ass is strange and marginal that homophobia exists. It is not strange and marginal. It might not be what most people do but it is what many do and just because it is personally distasteful to you and your children does not mean that you should miss the point of the effort to celebrate the openness that some people can share. Let me see. I bet you guys get a lot of joy and personal enjoyment from going to strip clubs tipping and getting dances. A huge portion of the population probably finds this distasteful even immoral. But I'm sure a lot of you make it OK because you keep it a secret or just don't talk about it. Or maybe you do it with your buddies. I obviously don't think that going to strip clubs is wrong but some people think it is very wrong. Not saying you should have a PL parade in the streets or anything (no one wants to see that) but my point is just because some people find it distasteful doesn't mean that you shouldn't have the right to do it. Just because you find homosexuality distasteful (you inherently obviously do otherwise you would not try to argue against celebrations of homosexuality or mistakenly portray them as hurting their own cause) does not mean that you can judge people that celebrate it.

  20. #95
    Jay Zeno
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Frankly, I'm a little surprised you fell for it.
    I didn't fall for anything. I follow my logic where it leads, without the benefit of someone else leashing me along. I'm not going to knee-jerk agree or disagree to something merely because someone considers it the right or wrong politics.

    I've said I'm in support of homosexual marriage. I'm not using anything as a rationale against it.

    "We believe in polygamy." Too bad. There's laws against polygamy. If you practice it openly, you could go to jail. There is no civil recognition of your status - indeed, there is civil prohibition. There's no place for "P" for marital status on your job application, and thank goodness, because most employers would shun you. You can't wait until some enlightened time in the future comes along and you can come out of the group marriage closet.


    Where is the connection? I mean you say you've never gotten the rationale for the dissent - what is the rationale for the claim?
    "What's wrong with it besides your traditional morals, which is keeping us fettered from realizing our human potential?"


    But there is no way to say "I don't think gays should be allowed to get married" without implicitly accepting that they are socially less valuable than heteros. If you think there is a way to say that, I'd love to hear it.
    Well, I'm not trying to find a way to say it, since I don't believe it. But I can imagine people who are traditionally invested in a traditional marriage, where traditionally, the government sanctioned it as a way to promote the nuclear family. The tides of society have left that concept high and dry, but they still have investment in it. They don't apply logic to it.

    These folks don't believe that sexual preference should dictate jobs, or corporate status, or other social status, or bonds of friendship, or membership in clubs, or status of ownership, or any of that other stuff that the law embraces as rights of humanity. They just can't wrap their arms around stretching out an institution past what their tradition, upbringing, and maybe religious training dictates.

    In short, that single issue doesn't, to me, necessarily dictate personal maliciousness on their part. I can see these people at a neighborhood barbecue debating the aspects of it with their gay friends.

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    This thread has become rather poo-ish. It's gonna take a nap now.
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