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Thread: Stripperweb Rationality...

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    God/dess Embyr's Avatar
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    Default Stripperweb Rationality...

    I am intensely puzzled... I do not intend for this thread to become a flame war, nor a belief vs. belief debate, but I do want to open up some dialogue...

    In the last month especially, I have noticed more threads on numerology, ghosts, mysticism, etc., than previously on this site... Is SW embracing the Forer effect and a major confirmation bias? Are we losing obectivity? Do we really seek to believe something so badly that we will ignore all evidence to the contrary?

    I just can't understand how women (and men), most of whom do not profess to be devoutly religious and are used to analyzing/dismissing false or insufficient information from bad sources, can both dispel Creationism and look to horoscopes/astrology for guidance at the same time....

  2. #2
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    ***Totally non-flaming response***

    I do understand your concern.

    I actually have become more cynical after feeling that certain supernatural things have been proven to me. I don't know HOW to explain that...

    Here's an example: a "spiritual guru" (I won't out him for legal reasons) was at our club and he was trying to see how gullible I was. I became enraged when he dramatically announced a "personal" type thing about me that I knew was not factually true. He then tried to hit on my friend Lady Gwen, using his "spiritual knowledge" to try to get into her pants (or g-string, as it was.)

    We Googled him & he's really published & considered a "guru." OK but whatever. He's a BS skeeze artist to me.

    I get angrier at people abusing spiritual knowledge to exploit others (like that guy) than any James Randi-type cynic.
    But I do feel bad for people who can't entertain the idea of things beyond their rational understanding.....That's just me though....

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    I think topics concerning Spirituality and Metaphysics are always interesting subjects even for those who claim to not have a spiritual or religious preference. It is quite common for people to be curious about the unproven or unknown.



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    God/dess LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Embyr View Post
    I just can't understand how women (and men), most of whom do not profess to be devoutly religious and are used to analyzing/dismissing false or insufficient information from bad sources, can both dispel Creationism and look to horoscopes/astrology for guidance at the same time....
    Just because you don't understand something (i.e. astrology) doesn't mean it isn't real. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but I think its very possible that there is actually a basis for these beliefs...

    One possible explanation is this: a mother's "state" during pregnancy affects a baby's development. Also, the mother's environment varies according to the time of year, i.e. days are shorter in winter. Shorter days mean less sunlight, less sunlight impacts the mother's mood + level of stimulation + possibly other things, which in turn affect the baby's development. Opposite for summer. So, maybe babies born in the spring really ARE slightly different than babies born in the fall.

    There are other factors that people claim affect us too, like tides, planetary movement (remember, you can't see magnetic fields) etc. I'm not even a strong believer in astrology, but I do think there might be some basis for it, even if it has not yet been proven.

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    Veteran Member Habinairo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Actually, one night at work, okay let's start this way, I believe in God and I believe He uses people in whatever way possible to get the message accross. Now, I say that because it leads into this, a non- Christian experience for me.

    That one night, a girl that I've served about 3 times, and who intimidated the shit out of me, was completely drunk, (it was all good, she had a ride home). And she came up to me saying "Please don't think I'm crazy, but there's a woman to your right, my left and she's saying to me that you're safe. And she's showering you with yellow roses all over! She's telling me how beautiful you are and you need to know it..." And she continued on, and well, let's just say, that she got it right. She was a medium, and she didn't want to be, I should say is, present tense. Anyway, I believe anything can happen, it doesn't matter who's doing it.
    And yes, it bothers me when others use it to their advantage and not to help others.

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    Veteran Member Habinairo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    BTW, I didn't state anything to get people upset, I'm just stating what I think in a non-judgemental way. NO offense intended.

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    God/dess Mr Hyde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    If it makes you feel better, I think all of that stuff is total and complete bullshit

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    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Oooooh. A perfect link for this thread:

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    The more philosophy of mind seminars I take, the less stock I put in human rationality. Our brains play tricks on us. We're never really as objective about things as we think we are...or usually we're not anyway (far be it from me to make any categorical statements in such a thread).

    I'm pretty well a nihilistic misanthrope lately, but I don't see what harm it does to believe in things like astrology. I don't believe in God or Jesus or Karma or basic human goodness or anything like that, but I've learned to keep my mouth shut around people who do. It's not like I can DISprove these things...Thus I kind of feel that for certain mysticism that is completely unfalsifiable, even if it's a huge shot in the dark, so long as it's not compelling people to hurt others, who am I to judge? What do I know? I have no reason to assume that my perspective is on the level either. Yeah, that's all I've gotten from this circular degree--- I can't find much reason for my own rationality. Pure a priori rational judgments can't even prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, but I bet it probably will.

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by mollyzmoon View Post
    I'm pretty well a nihilistic misanthrope lately, but I don't see what harm it does to believe in things like astrology. I don't believe in God or Jesus or Karma or basic human goodness or anything like that, but I've learned to keep my mouth shut around people who do.
    Why do we cynics have to be the ones to keep our mouths shut? And no, believing in astrology doesn't do harm, I guess, but it annoys me to listen to girls in the dressing room prattle on about it.

    I too am disturbed by the astonishing suspension of disbelief displayed around these parts sometimes. But hey, Embyr, I don't know where you got the idea this board was populated by rational people.

  11. #11
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan Wayward View Post
    I too am disturbed by the astonishing suspension of disbelief displayed around these parts sometimes. But hey, Embyr, I don't know where you got the idea this board was populated by rational people.
    *Giggle*

    I hit upon a reverse "Joan of Arcadia"* epiphany- if my mystical beliefs help me get ahead in life, why not stick to them? The older I get, the more certain values and intuitions I have are correct and beneficial if I play them correctly....

    * "Joan of Arcadia" was a TV show about a girl who REALLY talked to God. God was always telling her to do good. Well, I'm doing good- for myself...

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    God/dess greenidlady1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Well, I have certain feelings and beliefs about different things. I feel like if someone finds that or anything else regarding religion, politics or sexuality someone chooses to post offensive than they should look away. I feel like people should be allowed to express themselves freely as long as they are not harming others in the process. Now, that being said and my admitting to having religious "beliefs" does not mean that I am not open or I refuse to hear other ideas regarding such. I am just saying that if I don't like what someone has to say either I accept the fact they have different feelings than I do or I just move on simple as that.

  13. #13
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    The existence of the nonexistent world is unproven and unprovable. However, I've had enough weird shit happen in my life that I'm not convinced that the tangible world happens to hold all the facts.

    But when it comes to some aspects of numerology and astrology, I tend to fall quiet. Here's my problem there:

    Say you have identical twins born 20 minutes apart, on either side of midnight. A birthday numerology may say that they will have entirely different personalities. I'm guessing that will probably be wrong.

    Our dates are calculated on the Gregorian calendar, decreed by Pope Gregory XIII, a calendar which was a reworked Version 2 of the Julian calendar, which was very faulty as it related to solar revolutions, although it had been in existence for hundreds of years. Both calendars date back to an arbitrary point in time at 000, which was undoubtedly not the actual day of Jesus' birth, but just a point in time to begin. So if you want to base personality analysis on that type of foundation, be my guest, but it just seems a little shaky to me. Calendar dates don't have any reality to them. They're just labels of convenience for the passage of time.

    Likewise, yes, stars and planets have gravitational and magnetic fields. Let's take Mars. Mars varies in distance from Earth between 35 million miles to 250 million miles. That's a lot of variation, and sometimes the sun is between us. So it would not follow the "once a year static influence" that astrology proposes.

    Pick a constellation (and the constellations that we rely on are different than the constellations that the Mayans and Chinese and Egyptians perceived). Does Orion have an influence on us? One star in Orion, Betelgeuse (just say it once) is 1400 light years away from us. That means that the light we see from that star now started its journey about the time that the Anglo-Saxons were starting to camp out in merry old England. Bellatrix, another star in Orion, is a mere 470 light years away. It's bounced back and hit us again in the time that Betelgeuse's light took to get here. The lead star of Orion's dog, Sirius, is a mere 8.5 light years away. There is no consistency in the proximity of stars in a given constellation to us.

    It's hard to imagine magnetic or gravitational fields affecting personalities at that distance. Indeed, for a given newborn, the gravitational field of the obstetrician and the magnetic field of the delivery table is much stronger than that influenced by even the closest approach of Mars.

    Now, if numerology or astrology or any other ology works for you and you find happiness and peace with it, I say accept it. None of us know everything. We try to find what works for us, and as long as "what works" isn't sending humans out to plunder and kill each other, that's a net-plus ology, in my view.

  14. #14
    aussiepunkshocker
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    I can only speak for myself.
    The fact that Ive seen and heard ghosts / spirits and can remeber my past lives means that of course Im going to believe in them.
    I also see auras, have some psychic ability - I cant deny it.
    Palmistry is fairly scientific anyway if you look into it.
    My family for several generations have used alternative healing - although they rarely need it anyway as we are all a bunch of health freaks. I look at how healthy they are compared to most other people around us and how old they live to. Obviously something is working so why would I choose the orthodox path?
    I have alot of experience now with seeing or experiencing how alternative treatments can and do work. I have observed for many years - a couple of decades at least of some of the failings of "modern" medicine. Theres no way I could turn my back on everything Ive seen and experienced and believe in something else.
    Funnily enough my childhood ambition was to be a Doctor or scientist, then I discovered animal rights in my teens and that was the beginning of a very long journey (-:
    As for ignoring evidance - I think you will find that there are always at least two sides to every story, sometimes you just have to look alot harder for the opposing viewpoints.
    Sometimes there really arent answers or answers that please everyone. Yopu just have to get on with what you believe and make best of it (-:

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    The existence of the nonexistent world is unproven and unprovable. However, I've had enough weird shit happen in my life that I'm not convinced that the tangible world happens to hold all the facts...
    The same for me re: weird crap. But I could have been dreaming in some cases. However, there was one experience I had where seven other people in the class with me, including the minister teaching the class, noticed an effect from what I thought was only happening to me. To this day, I have no logical explanation for what happened then, especially since it happened from about the middle of the class until I fell asleep at home. This continued through 3 to 4 of the weekly classes.

    As to the "nonexistent world," at one time, electrons were nonexistent to us, since we couldn't "see" them. But we certainly have a lot of things today which wouldn't exist if scientists and engineers had not eventually found practical uses for electricity. Perhaps we just need some as yet unvented technologies to either prove/disprove some of those things we still can't "see".
    Last edited by PhaedrusZ; 07-25-2007 at 08:25 PM. Reason: typos

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    Veteran Member badpixie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    I commonly hear "the Universe is huge and amazing, we don't know everything" from people defending astrology. They're right, but it's a reason to look towards the facts for the truth, not to fill in the blanks with whatever tickles our fancy. I also hear "it's never been disproven" or even "it's been scientifically proven that astrology is accurate!" (The latter from an astrology "professor", of course.) Nothing could be more of a blatant lie.

    Everyone needs to read this: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html
    It covers the subject completely, far better than I could in this post.

    There is no defending astrology. The people who write books and horoscopes, offer readings, sell jewelry and charms, and teach classes are all charlatans and assholes. Some of them do believe their own crap, but they all want your cash.

    Not only does it take away money from believers, it fosters ignorance - which, I would argue, is far worse. Mysticism discourages people from thinking logically. It teaches them to rationalize (in a perverse sense) whatever they want to believe. There's no need to look for the facts. I've known many people who received A's and B's in their schools' science classes, but still believe in ghosts, angels, astrology, magic, and all sorts of superstitious garbage. They learned to parrot trivia until the day of an exam, without truly learning anything. And plenty of other people are worse off: http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ce_020501.html

    This kind of thinking spells disaster for humanity.

    And as far as psychics go: http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

    At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

    To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.
    'nuff said.

  17. #17
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Uhhhh, would you believe me if I said my "intuition" has saved me from bad experiences, especially pertaining to working in a bar environment?

    I feel the same way about hardcore cynics as I do about Republicans- you have a right to believe what you want, but I don't want to hear about it. LOL

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    I think the thing is though, people don't believe in astrology or Jesus or reincarnation because they are rational beliefs. I think people subconciously refuse to question beliefs that give them comfort. I mean, there are people who have opened museums dedicated to denying evolution. These museums contend that people coexisted with dinosaurs...like, my god. But the reason I keep my mouth shut is that you can't argue with that kind of belief. It is the anti-rational, and you can't deny the power in that. If someone says "well, I don't believe 2+2=4", you can't really argue with them. If they refuse to engage in rational behaviour, which I think people often do, you're never going to come to an agreement.

    I had a friend who went from a drug addicted atheist to a hard core christian. She went to church five days a week, and it kept her clean...but she wouldn't shut up about it. At first I tried to argue with her, and gave her all the reasons I can't believe in a omnipotent, omnibenevolent being...but it really hurt her. She just said "I don't WANT to think of those questions". So. It bugged me, but we called a truce to keep silent on the subject. I wasn't going to change her mind...and the thing is, I get it. I personally find endless objectivity and rational analysis of life extremely depressing. Objectively looking at myself, I'm always devastated by what I see. If people feel better talking about why they are such a saggitarius or whatever, then I can't stop that.

    And it is the rare rare person who is never just a little superstitious, or spooked by coicidence. Or it seems that way to me, anyways.

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Embyr View Post
    I just can't understand how women (and men), most of whom do not profess to be devoutly religious and are used to analyzing/dismissing false or insufficient information from bad sources, can both dispel Creationism and look to horoscopes/astrology for guidance at the same time....
    I haven't read SW lounge enough in the past to keep up on the trends on this site, but as to this, I have a theory.

    NO FLAMES INTENDED,but I'm not so sure the dismissing of religion has been primarily due to analytical minds so much as anti-religion seems to have become socially popular because that's where our more analytical minded people have been focusing their attentions. And as a trend, I think that while our scientific and analytical contributors to society have been pushing back at religion, they haven't hardly bothered pushing back at numerology, scientology, astrology, homeopathy, etc., And it's not because they believe in these, just you can only fight so many battles and not all battles are worth fighting.

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Habinairo View Post
    BTW, I didn't state anything to get people upset, I'm just stating what I think in a non-judgemental way. NO offense intended.
    On the other hand, I just love to piss people off.... what fun!

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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by badpixie View Post
    I commonly hear "the Universe is huge and amazing, we don't know everything" from people defending astrology. They're right, but it's a reason to look towards the facts for the truth, not to fill in the blanks with whatever tickles our fancy.
    To me, I think if you take just a basic glance at what human minds dreamed up just 2000 years ago, and compare that with what science has revealed, the only thing it is has shown me is that the reality is far more amazing then anything dreamed up by human brains. By the way, much of what is being learned in the realm of quantum mechanics is beyond rationale understanding, which is to say we are unable to create mental models of the sub-atomic world, but we can at least describe the measurable behaviors. Anyway it has been a never ending struggle for science. A constant fight between human nature, and the need of science to carefully weed out fiction from facts. It's cheap and easy to believe something, and damn hard to prove it, and human nature being what it is, we tend to choose what is easy over what is hard. Problem is there is nobody else here but us people. We have to keep each other honest. The way scientists do that is with procedures like the double-blind test, repeatable experiments, and aggressive measurement procedures. It's what keeps us honest with ourselves. Faith based systems forgo these self-checks.

    The problem is this. It's quite easy to believe that there are things that unknowable unless you discard these self-checks. Scientists would argue that this like saying you really can't believe the fictions that you create unless you also make a decision to believe your own fictions regardless of proof to the contrary. Believers would say that there are truths that can't be seen unless you have faith in them and believe. Shrug.

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    Veteran Member badpixie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by madmaxine View Post
    Uhhhh, would you believe me if I said my "intuition" has saved me from bad experiences, especially pertaining to working in a bar environment?

    I feel the same way about hardcore cynics as I do about Republicans- you have a right to believe what you want, but I don't want to hear about it. LOL
    Anecdotes are not evidence. I believe that you have good instincts, as many people working in a bar (or other difficult, people-oriented) environment do.

    "I don't want to hear about it" - that's awful. There's a world of real knowledge on the subject, and you'd rather stick your head in the sand because you want to be special in some mystical way you've created for yourself.

    I've trusted my instincts and avoided people who turned out to be cheapskates and assholes in the club, but I'm not arrogant enough to call myself psychic. Any desire to avoid someone or get out of a bad situation can be explained rationally: the person said things that were off, their body language was all wrong, they were too touchy - we pick these things up subconsciously, and they set off warning bells in our heads, which we can ignore or not.

    Your "evidence" of having mystic powers or being in touch with some guiding unseen force (or whatever you're getting at) doesn't mean anything. People think John Edwards is a psychic because they remember his "hits" and forget his "misses" - it's human nature. You always notice a street lamp going out when you drive beneath it; can you remember every time a lamp didn't go out when you passed by?

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage
    It's cheap and easy to believe something, and damn hard to prove it, and human nature being what it is, we tend to choose what is easy over what is hard.
    I liked your post, but especially that part. Well said.

    I "believed in" astrology and those sorts of things at age 12 and 13, like many (all?) of the girls and guys I knew at that age. When I found the facts, I swallowed my pride and went with the truth, rather than what was stylish or comforting. Mostly, I felt (and still feel) angry at being lied to - it is wrong for charlatans to flat-out lie and make up fairy tales just to lull us into spending money on false hope (again with the John Edwards crap).

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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Embyr View Post
    I just can't understand how women (and men), most of whom do not profess to be devoutly religious and are used to analyzing/dismissing false or insufficient information from bad sources, can both dispel Creationism and look to horoscopes/astrology for guidance at the same time....
    EmbyRRR:

    IMO, eclecticism--not variety--is the real spice of life, despite the obvious contradictions that may arise.

    Today, newspapers in Los Angeles, Chicago & Miami ran these astrological forecasts for my sign:

    July 25, 2007 - Los Angeles Times
    Pisces (Feb. 19-March 20). Charisma is high. You easily stir up interest in your cause or in yourself. Tonight is high-stakes poker (whether or not there is an actual poker game being played), and everything is wild.

    July 25, 2007 - Chicago Tribune
    Pisces (Feb. 19-March 20): Today is a 9 — You're producing great results. Keep to your schedule and you'll exceed expectations.

    July 25, 2007 - Miami Herald
    Try to mix with creative thinkers today who can bring out your best. A few excellent ideas could surface from out of the blue that would be very beneficial to you. This might turn out to be an extremely productive day for you because you'll instinctively utilize your time properly. Your smarts could yield those big rewards you desire.


    Sure, there are 3 different forecasts in 3 different cities for my sign today. Does my willingness to read and interpret any or all 3 make me a wanker?

    Perhaps our perspectives and insights operate (figuratively, anyway) like light does according to the Heisenberg Uncertainty, which roughly states that sometimes light acts like a wave, sometimes light acts like a particle--and at other times, light behaves like BOTH. In other words, sometimes my thoughts might be empirical (experience-based), sometimes rational (concept-based)--and at other times...?
    Last edited by Budai; 07-25-2007 at 09:51 PM.

  24. #24
    madmaxine
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Quote Originally Posted by badpixie View Post
    Anecdotes are not evidence. I believe that you have good instincts, as many people working in a bar (or other difficult, people-oriented) environment do.

    "I don't want to hear about it" - that's awful. There's a world of real knowledge on the subject, and you'd rather stick your head in the sand because you want to be special in some mystical way you've created for yourself.

    I've trusted my instincts and avoided people who turned out to be cheapskates and assholes in the club, but I'm not arrogant enough to call myself psychic. Any desire to avoid someone or get out of a bad situation can be explained rationally: the person said things that were off, their body language was all wrong, they were too touchy - we pick these things up subconsciously, and they set off warning bells in our heads, which we can ignore or not.

    Your "evidence" of having mystic powers or being in touch with some guiding unseen force (or whatever you're getting at) doesn't mean anything. People think John Edwards is a psychic because they remember his "hits" and forget his "misses" - it's human nature. You always notice a street lamp going out when you drive beneath it; can you remember every time a lamp didn't go out when you passed by?
    OH hon, I'm not going to argue with you. I will stand by my statements.

    If you'd like to PM about it, feel free, I am going on the road for a few days but I'm not opposed to hearing your opinions.

    I'd rather not say more publicly for different reasons. I will admit though, I am arrogant, and rightly so.

  25. #25
    God/dess jaizaine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stripperweb Rationality...

    Some people read horoscopes not because they believe in them but just for some fun!!

    I like watching shows about aliens landing and bigfoot but this does not mean I believe in either, it just means I find it interesting to ponder the thought.

    Organised religion is not for me but I do believe in god, jesus and an afterlife.

    I also believe in ghosts because like APS I have seen one and heard one.
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