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Thread: what cheney said about iraq in 94

  1. #26
    God/dess Chrissy68's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    lol @ paris's quagmire.

    and yea, whomever said it, i did feel that cheney was seriously a wee bit psychic.
    and while i feel that lestat's opinion here is somewhat true, that things have changed,
    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 View Post
    Oh yeah, he definitely nailed it. What I think changed in the past ten years (well - in 2001) was our sense that we could avoid these problems by staying out of it. So Iraqi culture didn't change but I think the perspective of the Powers That Be did - they knew going in would be bad all along, but then later decided that not going in would be even worse.
    the serious length of time we remained in Iraq is something i feel that we can't defend, as a country. we got in, we found saddam, and we shoulda left. it's not our job to put a mock america aka iraqi govt in. pardon me for being cynical or maybe even hopeful that we could really just take the back seat. no, no no. we americans are God's gift, clearly, and it's OUR job to put law and order back to the Iraqi ppl who clearly want us there.

    i had no idea this was aired on Daily Show but im SO glad it was. burn cheney, BURN!

    Love it!

  2. #27
    God/dess Bella21's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    I saw this on the Daily Show. I think it just further shows how little control the president and VP actually have in this country... Ugh.
    If you think school is hard, try being stupid.

  3. #28
    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    *Rant*

    Whatever, xdamage. Most people who end up as lowly guards in the prison system are extremely upstanding, totally secure, non-power-tripping individuals without chips on their shoulders. Real good guys. Yep. Say what you will about my dad--he was a hippie pot dealer who has never had a single violent crime on his record. So, yeah, talk all the shit you want about him. He did not deserve to be victimized in prison because a guard felt he'd been dealt a bad hand in life and had all the power in the world to take out his frustration on someone beneath him.

    You said:
    "Anyway, I understand this was your dad and you believe him and believe he was the victim. I'm just saying, the rest of the world is not obligated too believe your dad, and your dad's situation isn't the barometer by which we measure everything else when it comes to anti-social behavior."

    No, you're right. We're obligated to believe authorities--the police, the guards, the priests, the presidents. They tell the truth, not the low-life criminal scum. Wait a minute--which is which again?
    Last edited by Dottie Rebel; 08-16-2007 at 11:38 PM.

  4. #29
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    No, you're right. We're obligated to believe authorities--the police, the guards, the priests, the presidents. They tell the truth, not the low-life criminal scum. Wait a minute--which is which again?

    Your twisting my words because your feeling defensive about your dad.

    But to clarify... we're not obligated to believe anyone. However we are smart to question in general. Yes question authority figures, but also question criminals. You want to believe your dad because he is your dad, which is normal and fine, but the rest of us get to question, and don't have to accept his story, translated through you, as fact. After all, you weren't there. You are hearing his side, and if the reality is he is at fault, chances are he wouldn't tell you. Parents don't always tell their kids about everything they've done wrong. That's human nature.

    My experience is many criminals do lie. While your dad my have had a bad experience, and is the exception, I'm not going to shape my entire life view into a twisted one because of the rexceptions. That is to say, I'm not going to adopt a view that most authority figures are the bad guys, and most criminals are poor-victims. And in context of the original thread, even if your dad was a victim, it has little to do with the type of crime being talked about here, in this case a large group of people who went out of their way to kill thousands of Americans, Hijacked 3 planes, Destroyed the Twin Towers, have declared a Holy War on us, believe that suicide is honorable, and BRAG about it. All I can tell you is if you think that's bad, there are even worse types locked up in our jails.

    There are many people in prison that are in there because they are sociopaths, who have absolutely no respect for authority, or laws, or other people's rights or freedoms. There is no reasoning with them. They will take whatever they want if they can get away with it, including rape, steal, murder, even torture for nothing more then a cheap thrill. Your dad may just be the nice guy who had a bad day, but my message wasn't about your dad. You made it about him, and apparently have decided to view the entire reality about criminals and sociopaths through that very limited, second hand, experience.
    Last edited by xdamage; 08-17-2007 at 10:28 AM.

  5. #30
    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    I'm not twisting anything. While you'd like to believe that you speak logically and objectively and I am being emotional and subjective about the issue, I prefer to think that we just don't see eye to eye.

    I think you're missing my point, which has nothing to do with the criminal's tendency toward victim mentality. That's a WHOLE other ball of wax--to which I believe there is some merit. My point is that those sociopaths who will rape, murder or steal for little more than a cheap thrill include locked up thugs and brown-colored terrorists as well as high level executives, church leaders, heads of state, you name it. So it's rather useless to suggest that all the good folks just bomb out or lock up or otherwise destroy the bad folks. Who is who?

    I just can't subscribe to the "us and them," cheer for the home team, get'er done, smoke 'em out tribalism.
    Last edited by Dottie Rebel; 08-18-2007 at 04:04 AM.

  6. #31
    God/dess lestat1's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy68 View Post
    the serious length of time we remained in Iraq is something i feel that we can't defend, as a country. we got in, we found saddam, and we shoulda left. it's not our job to put a mock america aka iraqi govt in. pardon me for being cynical or maybe even hopeful that we could really just take the back seat. no, no no. we americans are God's gift, clearly, and it's OUR job to put law and order back to the Iraqi ppl who clearly want us there.
    Y'know stores that have "You break it, you buy it" signs? To me it's kind of the same. We took out the government and caused a big mess, we're responsible for fixing it. We spent 10 years in Germany after WWII, and that was 10 years of pure rebuilding and general security, no combat fighting!

    I try to flip things around and think how I'd feel. So I imagine some whack-job President taking over the US and becoming dicatator and making all of our lives miserable. Then I imagine another country, not an ally, but some other country, coming in and taking out whack-job president-deictator guy. Hmm, I'd be glad he's gone, not thrilled about a foreign army occupying my country, but ultimately I'd decide their occupation is better than the chaos of their absence. Ultimately I think the Iraqi's feel about the same. They're happy Hussein is gone, not thrilled at all to have our army there, but they know us leaving wouldn't exactly be great either. Lesser of two evils.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    omg, why is it so huge?!! lol lol

  7. #32
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy68 View Post
    lol @ paris's quagmire.


    the serious length of time we remained in Iraq is something i feel that we can't defend, as a country. we got in, we found saddam, and we shoulda left. it's not our job to put a mock america aka iraqi govt in. pardon me for being cynical or maybe even hopeful that we could really just take the back seat. no, no no. we americans are God's gift, clearly, and it's OUR job to put law and order back to the Iraqi ppl who clearly want us there.
    I just keep wondering to myself why we didn't seek the help of Arab allies? The culture or Iraq is so different from our own, that some help with the post invasion re-building from those with a cultural understanding of the region seems to be just common sense.

    We are stuck there because we have no f*cking clue how to unify the Iraqis. I'm sure Iran would have been more than happy to help out (and we are, at long last, in talks with Iran about helping out in Iraq!) with the rebuilding. I know that they are not an American Ally, but it seems like as good a time as any to create an allegiance with Iran/Iraq and have a very powerful "friend" in the middle east.

    The people of Iran are very supportive of America. It is a (relatively speaking) liberal nation. That just seems like the natural path to follow. The whole "my enemy's enemies are my friend" philosophy would apply in this case. They hated Sadam, we did the wet work of ridding the region of him. It would seem to me that that would be a good time to offer the olive branch to Iran.

    But I'm just an ex-stripper with time on my hands to read about US foriegn policy and how scandalous the Iraq war really is.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  8. #33
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: what cheney said about iraq in 94

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    I just can't subscribe to the "us and them," cheer for the home team, get'er done, smoke 'em out tribalism.
    I'd like to think it's more then that, although that's certainly an aspect that some latch on to. But from my point of view I don't subscribe to the notion that humans are inherently "good", but then I don't view them as inherently bad either. More like they are intelligent animals, and like animals, sometimes it comes down to a simple matter of kill or be killed, you better choose because if you don't have the ability to do so, the choice will be made for you. Of course I'd rather humans reason things out, but that requires all sides be reasonable. The problem is, what happens when you give men who are unreasonable access to weapons and tools that never existed before in history, and they have no problem at all using them. They don't want to reason. They do want to kill. While you are busy trying to reason, they are going to use that time to take advantage of the weakness. None of that's PC. It doesn't jive with everyone is basically good, or reasonable, or loving, but sometimes those are the facts.

    In a way though your demonstrating the point. Imagine your put in a position of making a tough decision to kill or be killed. If you choose to kill you know that a vast majority of those around you will never come to a consensus or take action. It's impossible to make everyone happy all of the time. No matter what action you take someone somewhere will want to debate it, want to preach love, want to argue about who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. In the meanwhile, your enemy is very clear minded in their intent to kill. Do you take action and protect yourself and put the best public spin on it that you can? Or you debate endlessly and because of the paralysis and risk that your enemy sees you as weak and becomes even more motivated and capable of attacking you?

    That's basically the tough decision a leader may be faced with, and sometimes there is simply no way to win. No matter how you choose one way or another some portion of the group is going to be unhappy.

    Me, I'm pretty clear. I have no problem choosing to save myself and loved ones if my choices comes down to that. I'm also not opposed to the notion of 10 eyes for one under certain circumstances. But everyone has their own view. All I know is that none of us has a crystal ball, and that not all people are reasonable, and it could happen that we end up having to make a tough choice, survive or die, and never know for sure how history would have panned out if we delayed or showed weakness.

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