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Thread: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I LOVE that! I knew the world was ending when Cheez Whiz came out and people started adding those damn Zs to everything.
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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolina View Post
    So, in this sense, Standard Vernacular English is a dialect, just as AAVE is a dialect. (Given this fact, Cameron is probably correct in describing speakers fluent in both vernaculars as "bidialectical.")
    Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.

    In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.

    In Chinese, the word "dialect" has an entirely different meaning. It's the only language where the word "dialect" is used to describe languages that are totally mutually unintelligible in the spoken form. In written form, however, there is great uniformity, as all written Chinese is in either Simplified and Traditional and speakers of all dialects can read them.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Owner View Post
    Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.

    In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.
    Yeah. I understood that (I think. I dunno. It was four in the morning and I was drunk). I was just trying to point out how the meaning of language vs. dialect can shift depending on context. I guess I didn't do a very good job.
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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    ^ It's a very slippery slope, baby. And I think you did a great job.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Other Owner View Post
    Not exactly. If that were the case, there would be no "bilinguals," only "bidialecticals." Here is why this is not true.

    In one sense, linguists say that "we all speak a dialect" to emphasize that even within an established language, there are a huge number of subtle dialects. However, in practice, there are a substantive number of evolved dialects that have moved away from the core language and assumed a complexity of their own. This is what AAVE is. A person who is bilingual speaks SAE or SVE and a substantively different dialect of it; a person who is bidialectical speaks two different dialects of one or more languages.
    You know, now that I've re-read this more carefully, I think I didn't understand the precise definition of "bidialectical" vs. "bilingual." Thanks for explaining.

    In Chinese, the word "dialect" has an entirely different meaning. It's the only language where the word "dialect" is used to describe languages that are totally mutually unintelligible in the spoken form. In written form, however, there is great uniformity, as all written Chinese is in either Simplified and Traditional and speakers of all dialects can read them.
    See, I didn't know that, either. You so smart, baby.
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Wow, this is the most active I've seen Nic OR TOO in a long time. Yay!

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Language, dialect, ehtnolect, whatever. It's abused as an excuse for poor communication skills by too many.

    Other day at work:

    (After not giving guy I work with a cookie.)
    Him: I see how you is.
    Me: What?
    Him: You's bein' a bitch wit dem [cookies], shorty.
    Me: You just called me a bitch? Right, dude. (Starts to walk away.)
    Him: *laughs* Naw, shorty, I fluent in ebonics... (yadda yadda yadda)

    I'm sorry, but no language/dialect is an excuse for being downright rude to someone else.



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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    ^ agreed!

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron_keys View Post
    It's not a language. It's slang..or at most a regional dialect.

    Honestly..I hate it. It sounds low class and uneducated. And when you consider that, like said above, most of the kids speaking this arent actually from the ghetto or that particular region..they are just posers copying what they see on MTV....it's just retarded.

    I mean..people STRIVE to become and sound educated to distance themselves from that life so they can have a better life for themselves...and these kids are TRYING to sound lowbrow? I just want to smack them.

    yep. I agree.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nautilus View Post
    t/jack:

    TOO, do you get to put 'lexicographer' on your customs form for occupation? Do they go, 'wha...?'
    My brother put "bum" as his occupation one year on his income tax return. I always wondered what they thought of it.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardkandee View Post
    Language, dialect, ehtnolect, whatever. It's abused as an excuse for poor communication skills by too many.

    Other day at work:

    (After not giving guy I work with a cookie.)
    Him: I see how you is.
    Me: What?
    Him: You's bein' a bitch wit dem [cookies], shorty.
    Me: You just called me a bitch? Right, dude. (Starts to walk away.)
    Him: *laughs* Naw, shorty, I fluent in ebonics... (yadda yadda yadda)

    I'm sorry, but no language/dialect is an excuse for being downright rude to someone else.
    he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.

    you were actually the rude one in this example.

    dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.

    also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.

    the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.

    and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.

    don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.
    You know, I was sort of thinking the same thing. The problem was not that he was speaking AAVE, but that he was speaking AAVE to someone who was not fluent in the dialect. Misunderstanding is sure to ensue.

    dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.

    also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.

    the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.

    and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.

    don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
    Thank you. Nice post.
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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  13. #113
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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.

    and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.

    don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
    See..the problem with this is that the majority of people who speak this way DO speak proper English. They KNOW that they may be misunderstood outside their group..thats half the point. They CHOOSE to speak this way specifically to appear ghetto and thug.THERES the stigma.
    White or black...thug life is considered cool. And thugs are not educated and proper..they are trashy and preferably have criminal backgrounds. And I have little to no patience for people STRIVING to be a criminal element.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by WiseGuy_TX View Post
    ...y'all brainiacs should start posting your arguments/discussions in ebonics. Just for fun that is.
    Y'know, I would if I could. But I am not fluent in the dialect. If I tried, I would sound like an idiot. I would make mistakes that would make it difficult for an AAVE speaker to glean my exact meaning.

    This seems to support the notion that AAVE really is a language in its own right (i.e. a dialect that differs significantly from SAE, to the extent that the two are not always perfectly mutually intelligible).
    "Doc still loved true things, but he knew it was not a general love and it could be a very dangerous mistress." - John Steinbeck, Cannery Row


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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron_keys View Post
    See..the problem with this is that the majority of people who speak this way DO speak proper English. They KNOW that they may be misunderstood outside their group..thats half the point. They CHOOSE to speak this way specifically to appear ghetto and thug.THERES the stigma.
    White or black...thug life is considered cool. And thugs are not educated and proper..they are trashy and preferably have criminal backgrounds. And I have little to no patience for people STRIVING to be a criminal element.

    Thanks Cam!

    Is everyone ignoring my post? Would you guys rather think you know what a Black dialect is even though you haven't heard much beyond rap lyrics? HELLO, is this mike on?!!
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    i'm not rascist (sp?) but when i hear ebonics... i run the other way.

    why not say "what's up" instead of "what it do?"
    if that's even what it means... lol

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    Is everyone ignoring my post?
    Nope, I really liked your post about the difference between hip-hop slang and everyday AAVE. I thought it was spot-on, and enlightening.

    People do seem to be persistently confusing the two in this thread, though.

    NOT THE SAME!
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  18. #118
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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaylinn View Post


    Damn. I am just highly opinionated lately. I really should try to reign that in a bit....
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, why should you feel sorry or bad for yours?

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.

    you were actually the rude one in this example.

    dialects aren't 'lazy' or 'trashy' unless you are applying the rules of one dialect to another ignorantly. if you are ignorantly mapping rulesets from one dialect onto another, then of course the improperly mapped dialect will sound 'wrong'. which is pretty much what is happening throughout this thread.

    also, actual slang is being collapsed as representing AAVE or ebonics (a term attached to both AAVE and slang by some california educators, but mostly meant to refer to AAVE), which further muddies things.

    the only reason white guys speaking 'ebonics' or 'rap slang' or whathaveyou is considered 'trashy' is because it came from blackfolks and anything that comes from blackfolks is always considered bad first and grudgingly acceptable much later on after it's been thoroughly whitened up/deracinated.

    and AAVE hasn't been deracinated yet, so it's still got the stigma.

    don't get me wrong-- there's a time and a place for every sort of dialect and some people don't like to code-switch where it might be more apropos, but that does not mean the non-SAE dialects are themselves 'not really dialects, just junk' as people keep stubbornly insisting is the case.
    Ya uh if someone I don't know calls me a bitch in any context it's in bad taste and rude. Period.



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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    he actually wasn't calling you a bitch at all. he was saying that you were being stingy, according to the structural rules of his dialect. your ignorance led you to apply the rules of YOUR own dialect INCORRECTLY to HIS DIALECT.

    you were actually the rude one in this example.
    I was the rude one?
    What he said to me bugs me because (to me) it seems like he finds it ok to be on the boundaries of respect just because I'm younger (and maybe female - the guy has serious female issues). I'm his boss and he talks to me like that yet NEVER speaks to the male managers like that. It's always "yes sir" and so-called proper English around them. Which seems like he does not respect me in the same capacity he respects others.

    I suppose this is a sensitive spot for me because of more than just the language thing.



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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    to sirona: if you read the conversation excerpt, he specifically was not calling the girl in question a bitch at all. that is clear even from context. she wilfully chose to claim something that wasn't true due to her own preconceived notions about the guy talking to her.

    some people do hear what isn't there if it suits their prejudices.
    Last edited by miabella; 08-19-2007 at 06:13 PM. Reason: x-post

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    before we keep attcking hardkandee's example, why don't we find out what the context was,..... ie, miabella said she was being stingy, but was she?

    Its very easy to take that short abbreviated conversation out of context because we do not know what led up to it.

    but, mia, to counter your example, while you state he was using proper aave vernacular, does that mean I have the right to call an african-american the N-word, as it is part of AAVE vernacular? If he is offended, should I tell him that he is offending me for getting upset at me for using that word. (Which I find henious for the record).

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    I bake. People that work for me are always wanting "samples." He ate 7 (yes, I'm anal and count but I never charge them like I should and am happy that people like my treats). I was putting the rest out for sale, that's all. I don't think I was being stingy.



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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    thanks hdk, I think it clear that while he didn't realize it he did insult you, even if he had 1 or 2, or none, doesn't mean you talk to anyone like that.

    Sound liek to me that he speaks proper to everyone else, but, for some reason lacks respect for you.

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    Default Re: Ebonics: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Real View Post
    Sound liek to me that he speaks proper to everyone else, but, for some reason lacks respect for you.
    Yeah, like I said before, I think it runs deeper than just some sort of language barrier. I'm younger than his kids and his superior.

    But while we're talking about it, can someone please clarify shorty to me? Is it just like dude or something?



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