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Thread: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

  1. #1
    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Least religious countries:

    1. Sweden (up to 85% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)
    2. Vietnam
    3. Denmark
    4. Norway
    5. Japan
    6. Czech Republic
    7. Finland
    8. France
    9. South Korea
    10. Estonia (up to 49% non-believer, atheist, agnostic)

    In sum, countries marked by high rates of organic atheism are among the most societally healthy on earth, while societies characterized by non-existent rates of organic atheism are among the most destitute. Nations marked by high degrees of organic atheism tend to have among the lowest homicide rates, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, and illiteracy rates, and among the highest levels of wealth, life expectancy, educational attainment, and gender equality in the world. The only indicator of societal health mentioned above in which religious countries fared better than irreligious countries was suicide.

    Of course, it is essential to clearly state that I am in no way arguing that high levels of organic atheism cause societal health or that low levels of organic atheism cause societal ills such as poverty or illiteracy. If anything, the opposite argument should be made: societal health causes widespread atheism, and societal insecurity causes widespread belief in God, as discussed by Norris and Inglehart (2004) above.
    http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/facu...n/atheism.html

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    Banned Katrine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Word! Atheism rules!

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

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    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    and most of those nations won't be around with that population demographic in another 2-3 generations. atheism is irrevelant if atheists don't tend to have enough children (since immigrants overwhelmingly are not atheist).

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    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    ^^^ What???

    Yeah, OK....

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    God/dess ahmeerah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    I believe in "God" as being the Universe/Mother Nature. Not an individual.

    Does that make me an atheist?

    I pray to "God" but I'm praying to my higher self and nature.

    I've never considered myself atheist before.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    hmmm, the poll question asked about a God but not a Goddess !!!

    The poll question also makes the assumption that 'theism' must be focused toward the worship of a God (i.e. higher being) rather than the equivalent worship of something else as a higher 'being', such as government (i.e. socialism)

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    God/dess ahmeerah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Good point Melonie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    hmmm, the poll question asked about a God but not a Goddess !!!

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    nd most of those nations won't be around with that population demographic in another 2-3 generations. atheism is irrevelant if atheists don't tend to have enough children
    very good point as well. The thread title and poll background discussion attempt to argue various attributes which supposedly make a society 'healthy'. I would think that a self-destructing demographic sort of contradicts claims of societal 'health'.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...The poll question also makes the assumption that 'theism' must be focused toward the worship of a God (i.e. higher being) rather than the equivalent worship of something else as a higher 'being', such as government (i.e. socialism)
    After reading the poll, it also doesn't appear to cover the religion of global warming, primarily established by Al Gore. It would be interesting to do another poll, only of atheists, world-wide. Atheists pride themselves on their rationality and the use of scientific method, so it would be of interest to note how many of them believe/disbelieve in global warming.

    But this poll could very possibly have much truth to it, if you read this interview with the current president of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Klaus, as he has an interesting view of global warming. A couple other topics of interest are also covered in the interview,

    http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle...4408bc162.html

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Well, I didn't ask about 'worship of government' for the same reason I didn't ask about 'worship of Donald Duck' - because the same number of people worship Donald Duck as the number of people who worship government - zero.


    Similarly, the ability to rationally evaluate scientific data does not constitute a 'religion'.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    and most of those nations won't be around with that population demographic in another 2-3 generations. atheism is irrevelant if atheists don't tend to have enough children (since immigrants overwhelmingly are not atheist).
    Most Asian countries do not believe in gods (China, Japan), yet have many children.

    I've always been an atheist. From the first grade, going to a Catholic School, I knew that the Bible was made up fairy-tales. No, I wasn't an agnostic at that age, I knew that there where no such things as ghosts, goblins, gods, or spirits.

    I was sent to a Catholic School to get a better education, but I never believed in the fairy-tales they told. I use to think that the priests and nuns were nuts to believe in this stuff.

    I don't believe in priestcraft just like I don't believe in witchcraft.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    China and Japan are very religious nations, actually. You are sorely uninformed.

    That said, the Chinese birth rate is in trouble due to the abortions of female fetuses, which is a direct consequence of atheist beliefs.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Well, I didn't ask about 'worship of government' for the same reason I didn't ask about 'worship of Donald Duck' - because the same number of people worship Donald Duck as the number of people who worship government - zero.
    Consider the possibility that those 85% of Swedes who consider themselves to be 'athiests' have actually just substituted a new 'religion' in place of old ones !!


    (snip)"The Church of the Left
    Finding meaning in liberalism.

    By Stanley Kurtz, fellow, the Hudson Institute

    Sometime during the past thirty years, liberalism stopped being a mere political perspective and turned into a religion. I mean that literally. Liberalism now functions for substantial numbers of its adherents as a religion: an encompassing worldview that answers the big questions about life, lends significance to our daily exertions, and provides a rationale for meaningful collective action.

    It wasn't supposed to be that way. Liberalism arose as a solution to the destructive religious wars of Europe's past, and succeeded because it allowed people of differing religious perspectives to live peacefully and productively in the same society. Designed to make the world safe for adherents of differing faiths, liberalism itself was never supposed to be a faith. But that is exactly what liberalism has become. And this transformation of liberalism into a de facto religion explains a lot about what we call "political correctness."

    Have you ever wondered why conservatives nowadays are so often demonized, even by mainstream liberals? No matter how balanced, well-reasoned, or rooted in long-established principle conservative objections to, say, affirmative action or gay marriage may be, conservatives are still likely to find themselves stigmatized as racist homophobes. By the same token, reasonable conservative ideas are regularly deemed unfit for reasoned debate. This preference for ostracism over engagement amounts to a brilliant strategy on the part of the Left, but the demonization of conservatives can't be explained as a mere conscious tactical maneuver. The stigmatization of conservatives only works because so many people are primed to respond to it in the first place.

    So why have conservatives been demonized? Maybe it's because the religion that liberalism has become is so badly in need of demons. Traditional liberalism simply laid out ground rules for reasoned debate and the peaceful adjudication of political differences. One of the main reasons why politics in a liberal society could be peaceful was that people sought direction about life's ultimate purpose outside of politics itself. But once traditional religion ceased to provide modern liberals with either an ultimate life purpose or a pattern of virtue, liberalism itself was the only belief system remaining that could supply these essential elements of life.

    So how does liberalism grant meaning to life? How does liberalism do what religion used to do? So long as it serves as a mere set of ground rules for adjudicating day-to-day political differences, liberalism remains too "boring" to serve as a religion. But what if liberals were engaged at every moment in a dire, almost revolutionary, struggle for the very principles of liberalism itself? What if liberals were at war on a daily basis with King George III? With Hitler? With Bull Connor? Now that would supply a purpose to life — a purpose capable of endowing even our daily exertions with a larger significance, and certainly a purpose that would provide a rationale for meaningful collective action."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot View Post
    ....Similarly, the ability to rationally evaluate scientific data does not constitute a 'religion'.
    True, but global warming, as far as I'm concerned, does constitute a religion.

    But God can't really exist. If God did exist, the financial parasites known as politicians wouldn't be allowed to exist. After all, they get their paychecks by extorting "protection money" from people with real jobs, exactly the same as organized crime. The only deifference being the politiicians threaten jail terms instead of death or arson.

    Neither would the multinational corporations be allowed to exist in their present form if God really did exist. And there certainly wouldn't be any tax funds available to bail out the subprime mortgage lenders. (See paragraph immediately above).
    Last edited by PhaedrusZ; 08-26-2007 at 04:45 PM. Reason: modified one paragraph

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    um, why is human sin the reason 'God must not exist'?

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Go Team Atheist!



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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    China and Japan are very religious nations, actually. You are sorely uninformed.

    That said, the Chinese birth rate is in trouble due to the abortions of female fetuses, which is a direct consequence of atheist beliefs.
    China and Japan may be very religious, but the OP poll question was about believing in a god. Religion is not necessarily the same as believing in a god.

    Having strong beliefs in a form of government, or way of life (Confucianism, Buddhism, etc.), does not count as a belief in a god that the OP was talking about.

    I can believe in many things religiously, but that's different from believing in a god.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    you don't really know much about the religions you just referenced. there's belief in a god or gods-- in fact it is a primary concern.

    as for anything more, you are splitting hairs and counting angels on pinheads.

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    China and Japan are very religious nations, actually. You are sorely uninformed.
    And from what sources did you get your information? What I mean to say is, have you actually engaged in scholarship of some type or is it just your 'sense' that they are both very religious nations? The study I referenced in the OP seems to indicate that China and Japan are not really two nations that you would want to lump together under this characterization:

    As a result of periodic repression of religion by various dictators (Guest, 2003), survey data of religious belief in the most populated country in the world – China -is extremely unreliable (Demerath, 2001: 154). Only very recently has sound scholarship begun to emerge, and even that is of limited scope (Yang, 2004). Estimates of high degrees of atheism in China are most likely gross over-exaggerations (Overmyer, 2003). That said, according to Barrett et al (2001), 8% of the Chinese are atheist. According to Marshall (2000), 10% of those in China identify as “atheist.” According to Johnstone (1993), 59% of those in China are nonreligious. According to O’Brien and Palmer (1993), between 10-14% of those in China are “avowed atheists.”

    - snip -

    According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 65% of those in Japan do not believe in God. According to Demerath (2001: 138 ), 64% do not believe in God and 55% do not believe in Buddha, however a very strong majority have engaged in some form or Shinto, Buddhist, or Japanese folk/cultural ritual, such visiting a shrine or temple on the previous New Year’s Day. According to the 1999 Gallup International Poll, nearly 29% of the Japanese chose “none” as their religion. According to Johnstone (1993: 323), 84% of the Japanese claim no personal religion, but most follow “the customs of Japanese traditional religion.”

    http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/facu...n/atheism.html

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    your quote doesn't disprove anything-- it only states that reliable stats are damned hard to come by.

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    God/dess dlabtot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    I didn't say that my quote was proof of anything... what did do was ask you what the source of your information in saying that China and Japan "are very religious nations"...

    What is the source of your information? Is it just a vague feeling you have or is it based on some research you've done?

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmeerah View Post
    I believe in "God" as being the Universe/Mother Nature. Not an individual.

    Does that make me an atheist?

    I pray to "God" but I'm praying to my higher self and nature.

    I've never considered myself atheist before.
    I think that would make you a pantheist!!!

    But i would venture to say - concerning liberalism as a theology - that the most extreme socialist countries, the communists, set the dictator as a GOd .. Kim Jung Il in Korea. I mean his father who is also a god is still president!!!! In fact many of our lovely right wings goverments - the fascists - did the same. So I dont think one's political, economics viewpoint is enuf to create a "idealogy" god. More to the degree of extremism in one's idealogy be it left or right, then we get these weird little government/personality cults. Thats why its important to watch the Christian Right in the US - scary group.

    Have u all read And God IS Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. Great book!!

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    That said, the Chinese birth rate is in trouble due to the abortions of female fetuses, which is a direct consequence of atheist beliefs.
    no.... it's a direct consequence of violence against women, misogyny, a belief that women hold little value in society, etc... nothing to do with religion or a lack thereof...

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Embyr View Post
    no.... it's a direct consequence of violence against women, misogyny, a belief that women hold little value in society, etc... nothing to do with religion or a lack thereof...
    Indeed. Violence and man-hating as well male babies having little value in society should be stepped up so as to even things out I suppose.

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    Default Re: Atheism rampant in healthy societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    Word! Atheism rules!

    Shokran!

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