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Thread: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

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    God/dess LuckiCharm's Avatar
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    Default Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    I overheard my boyfriends uncle saying he thought prison was the new "slavery system" because the prisoners basically work for free. I'm not sure what to think about this...I thought the prisoners worked because they committed a major crime dangerous to society and basically can't just sit there and do nothing while they spend their life in prison.
    This statement actually offended me...what does he think, prisoners should go free without having to pay for what they did or something? WTF...

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    I think your bf's uncle is a nut. They get paid like $0.06 an hour or something, whatever it is, they get paid. They are not in there to have a good time, they are in there because they did something very very bad!!! I'm a little tipsy and don't have a better argument, but I agree with you.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    There is a lot of money to be made with prisons, drug forfeiture, union wages, taxes budgeted to crime, and fees. I read somewhere some dude fixed up his house and ended up with six months jail time for the effort (California of course.) If there is a military-industrial complex there certainly is a prison-industrial complex these days.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    how do you get 6 months in jail for fixing your house? people fix houses everyday. i've never been to california, so maybe it's the state, but that sounds weird.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by alisha101 View Post
    how do you get 6 months in jail for fixing your house? people fix houses everyday. i've never been to california, so maybe it's the state, but that sounds weird.


    Like I have said in Dollar Den - expect a lot of craziness in California cuz that place is broke and they will scratch and claw every dollar they can get.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    to be fair he was given the choice to take them down, or get the necessary permits. And he had 6 months. Cali may be strapped for ash, but, they will be spendning more money sending him to prison then if they just sued him for the $$$ for the damn permits.

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    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Real View Post
    to be fair he was given the choice to take them down, or get the necessary permits. And he had 6 months. Cali may be strapped for ash, but, they will be spendning more money sending him to prison then if they just sued him for the $$$ for the damn permits.
    I guess it's fair if you believe you need permission to make such light weight alterations to your property.

    Personally I think this country is turning more and more into a "ask the government for permission to do something" place. We shouldn't be surprised when we find ourselves required to ask for permission than to exercise our freedoms.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    I think its ok if the labor is considered part of the sentence (most of it doesn't seem cruel or unusual to me). But it disturbs me a little that prisoners are treated as cheap labor by the state simply becuase they are incarcerated.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Teaching some element of structure (a.k.a. work) is the best thing that we can do for those inmates who are eventually going to be on the outside of those walls again. The lack of such structure while in the outside world is the main reason those guys are in there in the first place. You can't measure the value of that structure in dollars.

    As far as the "they work for free" argument goes, may I point out that most those of us who obeyed the law and live outside of prisions as a result, have to pay for our food, shelter and health care, not to mention pay for theirs through our taxes.
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    I think it's better that they "earn their keep" rather than everyone else on the outside paying for them with their taxes.

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    Kaylinn
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Work for free? They are getting a roof over their heads, 3 meals a day, and a warm( if uncomfortable) bed. They should work, or do something to pay for that.

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    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    If they have time to watch TV, play basketball, start riots, do drugs, and rape each other (which they do), then they aren't working ENOUGH. Bring back the chain gang.

    And yes, they should have to earn their keep. We're not paying thousands of dollars per inmate to send them on a vacation. The whole point of prison is that it should be extremely unpleasant.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    One other way to look at it... estimates to house a federal prisoner vary from 20K somethings on up depending on which facility they are housed in. If you look at it like they that at least part of that can be accounted for as compensation for the cost to house them. That said, sure, it seems reasonable to ask if they system is being abused. I guess another angle is that work is tough, and it can be considered part of the punishment. And yet another angle is that if you are a prisoner, and have shown reasonably reliable behavior, it's actually considered a benefit to be allowed work outside of one's cell. I don't have any answer, but I do think that simply calling it a slavery system is a fairly gross over simplification.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    if you are a prisoner, and have shown reasonably reliable behavior, it's actually considered a benefit to be allowed work outside of one's cell.
    not just a benefit but I'm pretty sure that working is also considered a privilege that must be earned. Working and exercise are both necessary in order to provide structure, rudimentary job skills, and a release for tension.


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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Perhaps they are saying that because a disproportionate number of prisoners are black. The legal system is a very racist one indeed.
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by LoveSexMoney View Post
    not just a benefit but I'm pretty sure that working is also considered a privilege that must be earned. Working and exercise are both necessary in order to provide structure, rudimentary job skills, and a release for tension.
    My experience was that some exercise is basically a right, although very limited for the very dangerous since ultimately the safety of the staff comes first, but yes, work was considered a privilege, particularly off-site, and outdoor work. Those who earn it have to earn a certain level of trust with the staff since the last thing anyone wants is for a potentially dangerous person to run off and commit another crime. No way to be 100% sure, but yea... and when you are locked up for an extended period of time, a chance to get out and make a few bucks is a step up. Things could have changed since then of course.

    But I do agree, work and keeping busy is overall therapeutic and better then sitting around in a cell endlessly. I don't know if anyone is made to work anymore. As far as I know the prisoners have to agree to it, and nobody is holding a gun to their head or whip to their back making them work anymore, but I could be wrong about that. At least in the USA, but probably other countries do make prisoners work against their will.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    Perhaps they are saying that because a disproportionate number of prisoners are black.
    Yea, that's a reasonable interpretation of what is behind what is meant.

    One problem with that interpretation is that many countries that are far less multi-cultural then the USA have prisons, prisoners, and presumably varying degrees of required work or voluntary little or low wage work. If you look at all of it, and consider all prisons and prisoners world wide, it's a lot less clear that work in prison is a racial issue specifically, and may well be normal human nature that people tend to expect prisoners pay for their crimes with work. Or at least I should say, I think you can at least find some common threads that are not racial such as societies expect prisoners to pay their debt through work, or at least pay their up-keep costs, etc, independent of race. I'm guessing a bit here but hopefully the point is clear, we can learn a lot about what is really motivating humans by not strictly focusing on the USA's policies only.

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    God/dess Dottie Rebel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    The United States of America incarerates a higher percentage of its population than any other industrialized nation because we lock up non-violent offenders, including those who need mental health care or addictions care much more than futher crime training in prison.

    There seems to be an understanding among posters here that if you're in prison you deserve to be there and you deserve no comforts or concessions because you're a dirty rotten criminal and you put yourself there. I think this is naive. A chain gang may serve to break a few, brew hatred in many, but trains NO ONE to be a productive member of society.

    There are a few things I notice about the prison industrial complex that make me wonder if there is some merit to this "radical" idea that the modern prison system is a sort of slavery:
    *Longer sentences being imposed for nonviolent drug offenses--rather than getting the help they need, these individuals are criminalized, taught to be REAL criminals in jail, have their lives interrupted which makes it that much further to make a decent life for themselves once they get out.
    *Aggressive campaigns to criminilize young people--again, training young people to be institutionalized rather than productive members of society.
    *An increasing contingent of chicldren orphaned by the criminal justice system-may the cycle continue on...and on and on and on.

    The slavery comparison is not so much as forced labor as it is about being forced into a class of society from which it is increasingly difficult to extract yourself.
    Last edited by Dottie Rebel; 08-28-2007 at 02:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    My mother works at Willard Correctional Facility, and she frequently complains that the prisoners/inmates there are treated better than some ppl on the streets in homeless and battered women shelters. I myself went there to do some teaching observations (yes, the "good behavior" inmates get a vocational school education), and spoke with some of the inmates. I talked to 10 of them, differing backgrounds, and 4 of them claimed to be repeat offenders so that they could return to the prison b/c the life there is better than outside the prison.
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    I don't know if I agree with the forced labor work at a reduced price or, what not, But I do believe that in all things prison related, the point should be to make it an experienced designed to rehabilitate the prisoner, and if released, to make them NOT want to come back.

    I don't want to compete with the local prison cause they're a competing work force that does work on the cheap (may happen) but I don't want them in there catching the latest episode of Big Love, and joining dating sites, while eating their 3 squares a day of decent prepared food without paying a single bill, while the ones out in the real world stack up adding to their LACK of desire to leave, either.
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by papillonluvr View Post
    My mother works at Willard Correctional Facility, and she frequently complains that the prisoners/inmates there are treated better than some ppl on the streets in homeless and battered women shelters. I myself went there to do some teaching observations (yes, the "good behavior" inmates get a vocational school education), and spoke with some of the inmates. I talked to 10 of them, differing backgrounds, and 4 of them claimed to be repeat offenders so that they could return to the prison b/c the life there is better than outside the prison.
    To me, this does NOT mean we should decrease the quality of prisoner treatment. It means we should INCREASE the quality of support for less fortunate individuals on the outside.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Threads like these make me realize over and over what smart and witty women are on this site....

    K, back to the topic.

    Hells yes they should work! They do get paid for it, it IS a privlidge and it most certainly should be a part of what comes with being in prison!

    My son does something wrong, for example, he trashed my living room and threw a fit about cleaning it up...guess what he did....went outside and picked up dog crap for 30 minutes. Not sure if that's exactly the example I was looking for, but damnit, it seems to me it's one of the oldest forms of punishment/lesson teaching/responsibility building tools we have. Back to when the chain gang would build railroads and clear forests, etc. It certainly not a new idea.

    As for slavery..... innocent people were bought and sold as property to be used as the "owners" saw fit. Regardless of a crime, attitude or position in life. I am almsot certain there is a HUGE difference between slavery and a man who has been found guilty of a crime, sent to prison and encouraged to work for a purpose.

    Hmph. That's all I have to say about that.




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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastridonicus View Post
    I don't know if I agree with the forced labor work at a reduced price or, what not, But I do believe that in all things prison related, the point should be to make it an experienced designed to rehabilitate the prisoner, and if released, to make them NOT want to come back.
    The problem is that's a nice magic wand answer, but waving the wand doesn't make it happen. I lived through a number of years working with the mentally ill violent types who we wanted to rehabilitate with counseling, getting them back into the community, etc. That was the PC buzz of the day. A lot where mentally ill or sociopaths, some needed meds, and some were just plain dangerous. The problem is with a nearly 75% return rate there is nobody that really knows how you rehabilitate people like this, and it's little consolation when it's your daughter, mother, wife, or sister who is the raped, or beaten for a few bucks by a repeat offender who maybe decides to stop taking his meds, or lied about having found Jesus, or just told a therapist whatever the therapist wanted to hear; it's little consolation that society waved the magic wand and was trying to rehabilitate them when you are the victim of a repeat offender. The thing is many did make it for a while, but within a year or two were busted again. I should add the victim in the case that was caught. Possibly the repeat offender raped or beat many others during their time out before being caught and finally put back in.

    I guess the thing is that we want simple answers for complex problems, and sometimes they just don't exist. Sometimes complex problems are just plain complex. I think some people can be rehabilitated but there is no magic wand that will rehabilitate all, and society is not very tolerant of the later returning to society and repeating. Also I don't think the purpose of prison is strictly to rehabilitate. I think to a great degree the purpose of prison is to 1.) get them out of society, and 2.) to discourage the next criminal wanna-be from committing a crime BEFORE they commit the crime. Rehabilitation is a bonus, but I don't know that it's really the key goal anymore because frankly a lot of things have been tried and we still end up with a very high return rate.

    All that said, Dotty is right that there are far too many people in jail for drug related offenses, and that just isn't working plain and simple, and needs to be re-thought.

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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    The United States of America incarerates a higher percentage of its population than any other industrialized nation because we lock up non-violent offenders, including those who need mental health care or addictions care much more than futher crime training in prison.

    There seems to be an understanding among posters here that if you're in prison you deserve to be there and you deserve no comforts or concessions because you're a dirty rotten criminal and you put yourself there. I think this is naive. A chain gang may serve to break a few, brew hatred in many, but trains NO ONE to be a productive member of society.

    There are a few things I notice about the prison industrial complex that make me wonder if there is some merit to this "radical" idea that the modern prison system is a sort of slavery:
    *Longer sentences being imposed for nonviolent drug offenses--rather than getting the help they need, these individuals are criminalized, taught to be REAL criminals in jail, have their lives interrupted which makes it that much further to make a decent life for themselves once they get out.
    *Aggressive campaigns to criminilize young people--again, training young people to be institutionalized rather than productive members of society.
    *An increasing contingent of chicldren orphaned by the criminal justice system-may the cycle continue on...and on and on and on.

    The slavery comparison is not so much as forced labor as it is about being forced into a class of society from which it is increasingly difficult to extract yourself.
    ^ All of that, combined with all the people who DON'T go to jail (ninety something percent of rapists, evil corporate presidents who kill thousands of people with DET and such, etc) plus the reduction in sentences for violent criminals (it's possible to go to jail for marijuana for much longer than you would go to jail for trying to kill someone, for example), make it clear that the injustice system in this country only reinforces and exaggerates the power structure that's in place. As one author says, the police are there to protect the percieved priviliges of those who "have" from those who don't have.



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    Featured Member maximvsv's Avatar
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    Default Re: Prison a new "Slavery System"?

    Just so we're clear on this, in the US, there's a specific exemption from the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution for criminal convictions.

    Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    Section 2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    So, as long as the slavery or involunary servitude is imposed as a punishment (not necessarily a sentence, but a punishment), it's perfectly okay.

    Due process still apllies, but that's usually an after-the-fact determination.
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