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Thread: The Porn Myth

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    Default The Porn Myth

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

    New article by Naomi Wolf, and quite interesting. I think the culture of porn has made it more difficult for regular women to have satisfying sex lives without feeling inferior. She expands on that and really has some excellent points.

    There's also a book called "Female Chauvanist Pigs: The Rise of Raunch Culture," by Ariel Levy that addresses some of the same topics. Has anyone else read it?
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

    New article by Naomi Wolf, and quite interesting. I think the culture of porn has made it more difficult for regular women to have satisfying sex lives without feeling inferior. She expands on that and really has some excellent points.
    I actually like Naomi Wolf a lot - thanks for this link! I agree that there are some very good points in there. I mean, I wonder a LOT about girls who are growing up in a much more porn-friendly culture. Sure there are pros to being more sexually open, but there have to be some cons, too. What happens if a young girl feels that porn is supposed to be the standard for her sexuality, even if it doesn't feel natural or right to her?

    I mean, we were all just discussing the self-manufactured "Sexiassbarbiedoll" in this thread. TELL ME porn didn't influence her. And how old is this girl? How long has she been aspiring to this? How else has it affected her life?

    Good food for thought, Andygirl.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    That's exactly the image that popped into my mind when I read the article. And the fact that the thread is five or six pages long full of SW'ers who think that is somehow an ideal body. It frightens me that the beautiful women on here value fake over their natural beauty.

    Obviously, I'm not saying all plastic surgery is bad or that you shouldn't do things to enhance yourself, but that particular chick has taken it to a frightening extreme. And I really don't think it's men who are perpetuating that as an image of beauty, it's women. Put a pic of a random SW girl next to "Barbie" and ask them who is hotter.....I bet very few would actually pick Barbie.

    And I was just watching Dr. 90210 the other day and he was talking about labiaplasty as the "hottest surgery in Hollywood" or somesuch. If women aren't getting these ideas from porn then where are they getting them? Now they not only have to worry about their boobs being perky, stomach being flat, having a tan, etc., they have to worry about their friggin' pussy lips. Give me a break!

    I'm currently taking classes at the local university and a lot of these younger girls look like carbon copies of each other. I guarantee they are spending more time on their fake bake and hair extensions than they are studying for their degrees. It blows my mind. And yes, I know that because I'm a stripper it might sound hypocritical, but I am able to look at these girls with some perspective because I am so much older than they are. It's hard to maintain that dichotomy of hottie and professional woman. Sometimes you have to choose.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl
    That's exactly the image that popped into my mind when I read the article. And the fact that the thread is five or six pages long full of SW'ers who think that is somehow an ideal body. It frightens me that the beautiful women on here value fake over their natural beauty.
    I think you've overestimated our reaction. She has a beautifully fit FEMININE body but many people were turned off by various parts of her look and about 2/3 hated it. Personally, I thought the boobs were too big but I loved her curves (which are common in that proportion in the black community). My experience is that body is not so rare IRL but is rare in the clubs because they prefer this kind of chick.... http://www.penthouseexecutiveclub.com/main.htm click on 'featured dancer'.

    This article points out the thing I hate most. Ten years ago, when you auditioned for a club they weren't obsessed about the shape and heft of your breast and liked the roundness typical of a woman's body. As long as you weren't saggy, stretch marked etc. they were happy. Now it has to be fake breasts or your nipple better point toward your chin and away from where a baby would nurse. You have to be as lean as a teenage boy with tits bolted on. The curve of a hip or bounce of a booty is ugly, shameful and laughable. For many years now I've thought club managers and owners actually hate women. We're objects to use but they prefer men to women. They respect men, rob their women employees to give to their male employees, and prefer to see men who look like women (very low body fat, promiscuous, etc.) I'm surprised all clubs haven't begun to hire trannies hookers instead of us.
    Last edited by Optimist; 09-06-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    This article points out the thing I hate most. Ten years ago, when you auditioned for a club they weren't obsessed about the shape and heft of your breast and liked the roundness typical of a woman's body. As long as you weren't saggy, stretch marked etc. they were happy. Now it has to be fake breasts or your nipple better point toward your chin and away from where a baby would nurse. You have to be as lean as a teenage boy with tits bolted on. The curve of a hip or bounce of a booty is ugly, shameful and laughable. For many years now I've thought club managers and owners actually hate women. We're objects to use but they prefer men to women. They respect men, rob their women employees to give to their male employees, and prefer to see men who look like women (very low body fat, promiscuous, etc.) I'm surprised all clubs haven't begun to hire trannies hookers instead of us.
    This is an interesting perspective, and different than the experience I've had as a dancer. I've never been slimmer than 120, and I've been hired and accepted into every club I've tried. No one has ever even suggested to me that curves are bad, or that we should try to be skinny like teenage boys. I've also seen lots of stretch marks, saggy boobs, and poochy stomachs, none of which have stopped girls from getting hired.

    Maybe it's a midwest thing, but the skinnier girls have never done as well as the buxom, curvy girls in clubs I've worked at. Hell, at my club right now we have a few who I would actually consider overweight. But they do very very well for themselves, and certainly outearn the girls who lack certain assets.

    I see what you mean about the club managers not liking women, and I think it is true with some of them. But I don't work at clubs that have unfair tipout/house fees because I refuse to give in to that shit. Luckily, right now I have a good situation, but I know that can always change.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    It frightens me that the beautiful women on here value fake over their natural beauty.
    It worries me too, Andygirl. There seems to be a high level of denial about it as well, which makes me even more concerned. I doubt there is much that can be done about the current adult generation whom already have that mindset but what my biggest fear is that it is getting past on to the next generation.

    Way too many women spend more on creating a false physical image than they do on saving for a house or even non beauty related health. Plenty have paid for a BA or costly monthly tanning, hair treatments etc. but yet don't have basic health or dental insurance. I think it is downright

    What makes is worse is that pretty much all the women who do this were perfectly fine when they were natural. Many even looked better before the BA, hair treatments and uber tans. What a waste of time, money and energy. It's really sad

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Giiirl you should see how they act on the east coast and Vegas. It's sick!! The top earner an FlashDancers was a girl who was anorexic!!!! Girls say that you have to be crack thin to get hired for prime shifts at Rhino Vegas. It's crazy! Milk that place for all it's worth. I got spoiled working in Staten Island where there were a lot of Italians. They love the curves!! I never had to worry until I left. Boy was that a shock! Oh, and we had male and female co-managers who liked the girls so much they'd hang with us OTC. Enjoy your spot!
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    She expands on that and really has some excellent points.
    I quickly read through the article, but yes, she does raise some very good points.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    Giiirl you should see how they act on the east coast and Vegas. It's sick!! The top earner an FlashDancers was a girl who was anorexic!!!! Girls say that youhave to be crack thin to get hired for prime shifts at Rhino Vegas. It's crazy! Milk that place for all it's worth. I got spoiled working in Staten Island where there were a lot of Italians. They love the curves!! I never had to worry until I left. Boy was that a shock! Oh, and we had male and female co-managers who liked the girls so much they'd hang with us in OTC. Enjoy your spot!
    Heh, I've danced on and off for 13 years, I'm not worried about it. And I got hired and danced in Las Vegas when I was a good 130 lbs.

    I just have a hard time believing that a majority of men in any city want to see skin and bones. I have never once heard a guy say he preferred that over curves.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    It is a midwest thing, Andygirl. Though, in Alaska, they were accepting of our body type too.

    I'm not fat, but I'm damn sure a woman, and a REAL one. And yet, the only place where I'm accepted is right up and down in the middle of the country. It saddens me.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post

    And I was just watching Dr. 90210 the other day and he was talking about labiaplasty as the "hottest surgery in Hollywood" or somesuch.
    I already hated that slick hyped-up motherfucker, now I hate him even more. It's bad enough, already, without him encouraging women to hate their natural lips. Lips are good, lips are pretty, they are flowers, not ugly things to be cut away!

    Besides, that guy will fuck anything that moves, I guarantee you, it's written all over him--I feel sorry for his wife.

    I like Naomi Wolf, if I didn't have to rest up for work tonight now I'd go read those, but I will later for sure, thanks!

    I did have some experience with a virgin who was indoctrinated with Rocco videos. She sure fucking loved being fucked like Rocco, lol! But every single time, I don't think so. I mean more power to her, and guys get indoctrinated by porn to expect or want certain things too, but it wasn't my thing--I like it once in a while but I have to be in that mood, or have it incited.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    Besides, that guy will fuck anything that moves, I guarantee you, it's written all over him--I feel sorry for his wife.
    As long as it's a man, lol. His wife is totally his beard.

    And Cherry Sin, again, I refuse to believe that I would only be considered hot in the midwest. Perhaps I am overly confident, but I feel that I could walk into just about any club in any city and get hired. The only thing that could potentially prevent that is my big tattoo. I really believe they'd have more of a problem with that than the fact that I weigh 122.

    A great example of curvy women love is the Nudes a Poppin' contest they have every summer. Yes, it is in Indiana, but plenty of girls come from all over to compete. You very rarely see stick thin girls at that show and the guys eat it up.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post

    And Cherry Sin, again, I refuse to believe that I would only be considered hot in the midwest. Perhaps I am overly confident, but I feel that I could walk into just about any club in any city and get hired...
    Haha! Remember what the other DJ in my club said when he saw you?

    "You're hired!"

    And the near riot you and Bridgette provoked on that pizza counter?

    I think you look great, I'd love to work with you...
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    And Cherry Sin, again, I refuse to believe that I would only be considered hot in the midwest. Perhaps I am overly confident, but I feel that I could walk into just about any club in any city and get hired. The only thing that could potentially prevent that is my big tattoo. I really believe they'd have more of a problem with that than the fact that I weigh 122.

    .
    You would. Ive danced up and down the east coast and I've never been stick skinny. At my skinniest I was bigger then you. Some places might have a hot nut for the ribs and spine set...but I've danced in the so-called "high end" clubs here in south FL where girls are sucked and tucked to within an inch of their life and I've always gotten hired..never even had to audition.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    I'm not saying you couldn't get hired, or that guys wouldn't love you - they would. But the stick thin girl isn't pushed as hard here, and there are way less guys that like it, is all I'm saying.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Re: Dr. 90210
    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    As long as it's a man, lol. His wife is totally his beard.
    Not to thread jack, but I THINK SO TOO!!! lol!

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    I have to say that parts of that article are so true. especially this quote:

    "After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it." -naomi wolf, http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/index1.html

    I have witnessed this more times than I can count. My g/f complains of it from all her old boyfriends, and even my own husband sometimes asks me to do things that I am not comfortable with but have seen many times on porno sites (vaginal stretching, anyone? )

    and I know I said this in another post, but even the younger girls, like 10, 13 years old, are being influenced by this. The way they dress, talk and act they seem more like they are in their twenties than pre-teen. I saw a Sex and the City episode not too long ago where Samantha planned a party for a 13 year old (i think 13, young if nothing else), and at first she was shocked, but then felt pity for the girls, saying that at least SHE had a childhood. Those girls didnt-they were talking about having sex with the boys and who was fuckable and who wasnt. I know I didnt talk like that when I was that young.

    How is it that the US, when being more open about sex than ever, turns into a nation of fakie, sometimes slutty girls, while other countries seem to deal with it better with the nude beaches and all? Or am I wrong in thinking that other countries are better at dealing with open sexual stuff?
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    I don't know. I think it's in our nature to push limits, which is a generally a good thing. Someone once referred to it as our "bitch" gene, a general trait that we tend not to be satisfied and want more, which is probably a big factor in why humans have survived and thrived and build and create beyond the rest of the animals. Anyway I don't think that's an inherently bad trait, and obviously some people are benefiting from porn, and that's also not in and of itself a bad thing. But at the end of the day, we can still ask, is this change in expectations a good one for society as a whole (putting aside it's a good one for some individuals, not so good for others), or is it a house of cards, building a set of unrealistic expectations and unrealistic wants? I can't answer that, although I'm personally happy that my expectations about what happens between my S.O. and I, and her appearance were shaped pre-internet-porn days. I'm overall a lot happier that we're happy being naked and enjoying ourselves then I think I would be if I was comparing her to porn ideals.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Anecdotally, I don't know if this rings true for me. Way back, once upon a time, (before she betrayed the sisterhood) in The Beauty Myth, she said that sexual pornography was far less damaging to female sexuality than Beauty Pornography. That was, granted, partially premised on the fact that sexual pornography has far less dissemination than beauty pornography and than it does now. But also because porn is, frankly, not nearly so intimidating to the female body image than your average lipstick ad. Like, if I'm in a sad-eyed mood, I'm much more likely to look at a magazine ad and feel all crappy about myself than a porn movie.

    I also think that the criticism that draws women to compare themselves so minutely to porn stars comes from mainstream beauty standards - not from men. Me, personally, I haven't noticed that men are really all that choosy. I mean think about the single biggest component of internet porn (that thing that has made porn so ubiquitous) - am I wrong or is it amateur? I mean while the "mainstream professional porn" are not nearly so intimidating to me as women modeling hairspray, amateur porn is even less so. I mean, is there a reason that so many men enjoy amateur, either in conjunction or instead of "professional porn"? Maybe there is something to the idea that there is room for both the perfect and imperfect in the male imagination? Moreover - I would suggest that the use of porn doesn't necessarily supplant "real women" in the male imagination. I mean, I can fantasize both about "fantasy men" and "real men", and most guys I know seem to do that as well.

    She also assumes a little too... completely? I mean, like without any complications? that women and girls who "tease guys at keg parties with lesbian kisses à la Britney and Madonna" and "ask for lapdances" have none of... well, their own agency. Like I'm sure some do feel "expected" and pressured (as we've all experience in the club); I'm equally sure that some are happily playing, experiencing their own sexuality and enjoying the experience. Many are probably negotiating between the two.

    As a sex worker, I continually experience the opposite of the phenomena - how bodies and appearance are secondary to the connection you can establish with a guy. That might be an unfair mode of analysis to her assertion - I mean, I'm not a college student. I make my living making those kinds of connections, so one might think that I'm unusually good at it; you might even claim (anecdotally) that the reason the connection is more important than bodies and appearance is BECAUSE of the lack of connection that Wolf says permeates contemporary sexuality. I'm not sure I buy that, however, based on my experience.

    Finally - masturbation and intercourse are... fundamentally different. I enjoy masturbation as much as the next person but in my experience, the experience of reaching orgasm with a partner is... well different than doing it myself. As in: better. A much more complete experience. So the "pavlovian response" she talks about doesn't really follow through for me.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Andygirl, I'd love to see you at Rhino in Vegas at 130lbs! Kikiwiki even got static from those people. I've worked in Vegas as well and I certainly know what I saw at the clubs I visited. Club Chat has several threads on the super skinny bias at the top clubs there. I'm not sure why you don't believe CherrySin, me, and dozens of women and men who've posted in those threads. Do you think we're making it up? Did you even look at the Penthouse link. Forewarned is forearmed! I'm saying better to prepare than have drama.

    Cameron, you're not like us mortal dancers. You're a porn star! You can go wherever you want at will! Though even you admitted to concern about your weight in your thread about a review of your film. There isn't a thing wrong with your body and I say your concern is evidence of the absurd body standards of men in our industries.
    Last edited by Optimist; 09-06-2007 at 06:20 PM.
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    What's a PORN?
    People are not ruled by their memories.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    It's a minor detail, but this article is almost four years old (the remark Naomi Wolf made about being 40 was the hint to me...she's almost 45 now).

    http://nymag.com/search/sitewide-sea...earch_type=all <- archive of Wolf's articles for New York magazine; this article is dated 10/20/2003.

    This quote at the end of the article really struck me (from a male Northwestern University student):

    “Mystery?” He looked at me blankly. And then, without hesitating, he replied: “I don’t know what you’re talking about. Sex has no mystery.”

    Has sex become mechanical (literally and figuratively)? And iif so, is Wolf correct in asserting the proliferation of porn as the primary reason?
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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastridonicus View Post
    What's a PORN?
    Come this way Mast, into my den. I'll show you some wonderful pieces of pornography that will either scar you for life....or, well, I can't tell you the other thing that may happen. Most people are just scarred for life, so don't worry about the alternative.

    *Gets out a wedge of cheese and waggles brows*

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Fuck me, double post.

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    Default Re: The Porn Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by cherry_sin View Post
    I'm not saying you couldn't get hired, or that guys wouldn't love you - they would. But the stick thin girl isn't pushed as hard here, and there are way less guys that like it, is all I'm saying.
    you mentioned the east coast.. i live on the east coast and while there are stick skinny girls, every club ive worked at has had variety. the only one who got rid of everyone but the stick skinny girls was hustler.

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