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Thread: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

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    Default Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    After reading Melonie's comments about extras, OTCs, and club trends in the "Scores East House Fees - Astronomical!!" thread in Club Chat forum, I am interested to hear the dancers' views on...

    Isn't there anything a club can do to keep out the extras? From what Melonie said in that other thread, it sounds like all clubs are headed that way. Additionally, while I understand it is far more difficult to control due to it happening off of club premises, is there anything a club can do about OTCs? And what I mean by "can do" is realistically can do and not if-we-lived-in-a-perfect-world can do. And does a non-extras club stand a chance if all its competition "turn a blind eye" to extras and OTCs?

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    Featured Member Starfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Install cameras. Watch your girls. Fire anyone caught doing extras. Don't run a million girls every shift and charge astronomical house fees/cuts of dancer money that will motivate girls to do extras.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    As in the words of one manager, and I quote, "Those girls are making the club $15,000 a month each."

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    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    ^^^ How much of that is the club paying to law enforcement?

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    ^^^ I was just thinking that. "How much of that goes to bail fund?"

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    cameron_keys
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberrySwitchblade View Post
    ^^^ I was just thinking that. "How much of that goes to bail fund?"
    I think she was referring to kickbacks and not bail!

    And even if you shell out $20K a month in bribes...if you have 5 or 10 extras girls...you are more than making a profit.

    Sadly ...many club owners/managers are just glorified pimps. All they care about is cash.

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    Yekhefah
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Last time I was at Platinum Plus in Memphis, I chatted with the dancer about it (and yeah, I got a pretty dirty dance). That place was legendary for drugs and extras before it got shut down recently, and everyone in Memphis knew full well that the owner paid a lot of money to the police to stay open. The dancer said the cops would come in about every week or so and write some tickets just so it looked like they were doing something, but the club paid all the tickets and encouraged the girls to keep up business as usual. I can't believe that place stayed open as long as it did... there must have been a LOT of money flowing through there into LE pockets.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    ^^^ How much of that is the club paying to law enforcement?



    haha, probably a lot

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Obviously this is a sensitive subject, so forgive me if my comments seem cryptic.

    Point one - almost without exception, state and local laws are written such that if a dancer is busted for providing 'extras' it is the dancer and ONLY the dancer that will face legal charges. Unless the clubowner is so stupid as to officially advertise the availability of illegal sexual contact for a price, club management can plead ' honest, officer, I had no idea what was going on back there'. The legal charges faced by the dancer are a misdemeanor at worst, meaning that disposition of the charges generally boils down to paying a fine and accepting a black mark on her criminal record. However from the clubowner's point of view, since no legal issues are involved for the club or the clubowner, this becomes a financial equation. On one side of that equation is the additional club income from extra customer door cover charges, extra bar sales, extra club 'cuts' of private dance / VIP sales etc. On the other side of the equation is the occasional out-of-pocket expense for the club's attorney, for bail money, and for paying the fine. From the clubowner's standpoint, every girl offering 'extras' provides enough additional revenue for the club that the clubowner would still be money ahead if the dancer were busted once a week. Thus from the clubowner's situation there is no downside to tacitly allowing 'extras' to take place in his club.

    Point two - with the exception of local election time, local politicians and cops really could care less about sexual contact taking place in exchange for money between two consenting adults who are not causing problems for anybody else. Local politicians and cops care even less if regular contributions are being made to the mayor's campaign fund and the police 'widows and orphans' fund. Thus in the 'real world', clubs and dancers usually don't come under pressure unless there is some third party agitator ... i.e. a vocal local bible thumper, goody two shoes neighbors, a new candidate for local political office, some property developer that wants to occupy the site of the strip club etc. Usually these third party agitators generate a lot of publicity, so it's not really all that difficult to know when it's time for 'extras' girls to clean up their act inside the club. However, this has little or no effect on events taking place outside the club after closing time !

    nstall cameras. Watch your girls. Fire anyone caught doing extras. Don't run a million girls every shift and charge astronomical house fees/cuts of dancer money that will motivate girls to do extras.
    In the real world, unless the club is located in a very upscale area, this is a formula for a slow bleed into bankruptcy for both the dancers and the clubowner. Actually enforcing a ban on 'extras' will drive away a certain percentage of the club's customer base as well as a certain percentage of total money coming into the club. Actually enforcing a ban on extras will also drive away many current club dancers due to reduced earnings potential ... who may be hard to replace given the now 'clean' club's reduced earnings potential becoming known. Reducing the club's cut of dancer money in order to help retain dancers makes it doubly difficult for the club to pay for it's fixed costs i.e. mortgage payments, property taxes, insurance, utility bills etc.

    The only scenario where a 'clean' club has a chance of being equally profitable is where there is a large group of potential customers who have plenty of money to spend, who care more about 'quality' of girls than 'quantity' of contact, and where there aren't any competing clubs located nearby. This isn't possible any longer in cities like Manhattan because of all of the competing clubs offering customers greater 'quantity' of contact plus equal 'quality' of girls.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-11-2007 at 03:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    My old club was nearly ideal in dealing with this. Here's the formula:
    1. curtains to VIP rooms stay open. Openings to the room were angled so that managers standing in the VIP section of the club could see into the rooms. If there's no place private enough to do extras, then you don't do them unless you're really stupid.
    2. Bouncers, VIP host and/or management would pop in unannounced to "see if we needed anything" (i.e. to check to see if both parties were behaving)
    3. cameras in each of the VIP rooms
    4. strict, enforced policy on dirty dancing. No contact means no contact. If it wasn't management weeding out the girls who habitually broke rules, it was the dancers who'd been there a significant amount of time (and knew how lucky we were to work there) who would weed them out/rat them out. 5. No phone numbers were allowed to be exchanged. This was due to a local prostitution law to ensure that girls weren't arranging hook-a-dates for later. There was a zero-tolerance policy. If a customer had their phone out, we'd ask them to put it away for fear we'd get fired.

    Believe it or not, with all of the above rules, an atmosphere of fun and entertainment abounded. House fees were very reasonable.

    How did the club still make money?
    1. We were the only "gentleman's" club on for about an hour's drive in all directions. Rhinestones, pedicures/manicures and the lingerie look were encouraged at nightly meetings (the basic concept being who would want to spend $500 on a girl with a dirty thong and chipped nail polish?)
    2. Mandatory bottle of champagne for VIP rooms. We'd market it to the customer this way--"the manager will waive the room fee if we get a bottle of champagne" when in fact, it was "mandatory." The club often got the bottles for free and would sell them for $150 and up.
    3. There was mad $$$ incentive for the VIP host and/or cocktail waitresses to upsell to a bottle of Dom or other high-dollar bottle. Dancers would also get a coupon for a free house fee if they sold a bottle for $300 and above.
    4. Lots of drink specials to keep pushing the custies to buy.

    It was not easy to sell private rooms, but dancers were really forced to learn how to hustle and work with the VIP host/waitresses to make money or move on to one of the local dives and try life there. I'm sure the club was not 100% extras free, but it must have been at 98-99%. Basically, we were trained as sales-people, and not prostitutes. The nightly 10min meetings the managers had with all of the girls really made sure everyone was on the same page and knew what our goal was.
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    uhm, some prostitutes are sales people, which would be why sometimes extras girls wildly outearn clean dancers. this is also a reason that extras are likely to creep in over time. if a girl is a good hustler and for whatever reason feels like adding extras to her list, she will then have another means to get maximum money from a customer. for a variety of reasons i don't think this is an ideal scenario for strippers, but discussing the problem of extras without conceding that some extras girls are perfectly good hustlers/earners without 'the extras being the hustle' just obscures potential solutions to the problem by implying that only stupid/ugly/lazy dancers do extras for pennies.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    ^^^ How much of that is the club paying to law enforcement?
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberrySwitchblade View Post
    ^^^ I was just thinking that. "How much of that goes to bail fund?"
    I know at the club I used to work at, the club doesn't pay anything to law enforcement and it sure as hell doesn't go to bail. The club owners seriously don't give a fuck about anything but their own asses.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    uhm, some prostitutes are sales people, which would be why sometimes extras girls wildly outearn clean dancers. this is also a reason that extras are likely to creep in over time. if a girl is a good hustler and for whatever reason feels like adding extras to her list, she will then have another means to get maximum money from a customer. for a variety of reasons i don't think this is an ideal scenario for strippers, but discussing the problem of extras without conceding that some extras girls are perfectly good hustlers/earners without 'the extras being the hustle' just obscures potential solutions to the problem by implying that only stupid/ugly/lazy dancers do extras for pennies.
    Sure, prostitutes are sales persons. Sure extras girls can be amazing hustlers. Sure a clean dancer might throw in an occasional BJ or HJ to seal the deal on a desperate night. But the product that was being sold at this particular club in my example was not extras. It was kickbacks on champagne, VIP room sales, and dances. Even blocks of time out on the floor were sold.

    Why would a girl that is a good hustler for clean dances and clean VIP's add extras? If you can get $300-$500 an hour and only do a couple of dances, a back rub, and have great conversation over champagne, why would you offer a blowjob? And hell yes doing as little as possible for maximum $$$ is an ideal scenario for strippers. A lot of girls are just too lazy to learn how to sell a clean product. If the club has a zero tolerance policy for extras as this one did, (I know because I worked there for over a year 5 days a week) then if the guy wants a blowjob, he won't get it. He'll leave and go somewhere else. Good. The girls that sell them among other extras services will also have to go somewhere else. But consistency among management is absolutely necessary for this to work, and for the most part, everyone was on the same page.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysondra View Post
    Strippers are like ninjas. You never know how many there are or if the person next to you is one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    ...I assume you probably don't want to deal with pervs, and the guys that just don't give a fuck about money are like unicorns...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinder View Post
    I know I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... THE VAGINA IS NOT A CLOWN CAR!


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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    The problem is that guys are constantly asking for extras and dates. Every girl is not repulsed by the idea of having sex for money. They merely feel they are the supply for the demand.

    When I worked in Houston, a girl was offered $3000 for sex and the girl declined. Another dancer found out and said she would fuck all day and night for $3000.

    While it is possible to curb extras in the club, there is no way to stop them from happening outside. Many small to medium sized towns that have clubs in them allow no extras inside. If they got caught the clubs would be closed. In big cities anything goes for the most part. The business is more competitive and the customers are more aggressive.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by paintgoddess View Post
    Sure, prostitutes are sales persons. Sure extras girls can be amazing hustlers. Sure a clean dancer might throw in an occasional BJ or HJ to seal the deal on a desperate night. But the product that was being sold at this particular club in my example was not extras. It was kickbacks on champagne, VIP room sales, and dances. Even blocks of time out on the floor were sold.

    Why would a girl that is a good hustler for clean dances and clean VIP's add extras? If you can get $300-$500 an hour and only do a couple of dances, a back rub, and have great conversation over champagne, why would you offer a blowjob? And hell yes doing as little as possible for maximum $$$ is an ideal scenario for strippers. A lot of girls are just too lazy to learn how to sell a clean product. If the club has a zero tolerance policy for extras as this one did, (I know because I worked there for over a year 5 days a week) then if the guy wants a blowjob, he won't get it. He'll leave and go somewhere else. Good. The girls that sell them among other extras services will also have to go somewhere else. But consistency among management is absolutely necessary for this to work, and for the most part, everyone was on the same page.
    also, considering how many girls post regularly about feeling guilty or not worthy over being paid so much money for clean dances/convo, it would not be surprising that other girls felt a similar way and chose to add extras to their list of 'stuff to do' to earn money.

    there are girls who will take the 500 an hour and then do extras for 1500. to them, that's 2k for an hour's work, and they see that as 'easier' than 4 hours of 'sitting and talking'.

    additionally, where is 'somewhere else' supposed to be? i mean, really, where is 'somewhere else' supposed to be?

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    Veteran Member hearts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    ^^^additionally, where is 'somewhere else' supposed to be? i mean, really, where is 'somewhere else' supposed to be?

    Well, we have a porn store with video booths as well as a "lingere modeling studio" right across the street. Haha. If a customer hints (our outright asks) for more, I tell him to go across the street, and I have gotten tipped for the referral--not just by my customers, but by the girls who work across the street!

    oh, oops. I just realized that you meant the girls. hmm.
    Last edited by hearts; 09-11-2007 at 09:18 PM. Reason: misread

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    Exclamation Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twin Tattoo View Post
    is there anything a club can do about OTCs?
    I've never been an Extra's Girl, and never ever will be... BUT

    1. If I meet a client in the club who wants to see me OTC, you can bet I'm giving the manager a hefty tip for letting me leave early. Said manager is now my best friend and will go out of his way to introduce me to big spenders. It's a win/win/win.

    2. If I am discreet and do not bring undue attention upon myself or the club, then who the fuck cares? I have bills to pay and a future to prepare for. My daughter deserves the absolute best I can provide, and I have a responsibility to be as successful as possible in this life. That includes finance.

    3. If you have a problem with dating or escorting OTC, then don't engage in it. But to imply that no one should engage in this practice is ridiculous. It makes the club tons of $$$, and makes us even more $$$! That's life in a free market economy.

    And by the way, I thank all of you who are repulsed by the idea of being prostitutes. Just less competition and more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for me!!!

    Oh, and off the subject, but I'm going to Sheri's Ranch on Thursday. Will update

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    Veteran Member 423texas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by ITgirl View Post
    I

    3. If you have a problem with dating or escorting OTC, then don't engage in it. But to imply that no one should engage in this practice is ridiculous. It makes the club tons of $$$, and makes us even more $$$! That's life in a free market economy.
    ITgirl,

    How does dating or escorting OTC make tons of money for the club? In the example you gave, you would give a nice tip to the manager. He would make some extra money but I don't see how the club makes any extra.

    AAMOF it seems the club loses money if girls are taking big spenders out of the club to do extras OTC. The girl and the manager make more (and the customer is happy), but it seems the club comes up short.
    Last edited by 423texas; 09-12-2007 at 12:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    There seems to be a divergence of opinion in this thread. Or is there divergence? Is Paintgoddess' club the exception that proves the rule, how non-extras clubs can compete with extras clubs, and/or, by being an hour from any competition, falls into the category stated by Melonie as possible only when there's no competition that will offer extras?

    Also, I would appreciate a clearer definition of what people are calling "extras". By how some here talk, it is prostitution (HJ, BJ, out-and-out sex) while it seems others classify it as anything that breaks the local laws of contact (dancing within six inches of the customer, showing one's kitty, allowing the customer to touch you, etc.).

    Then there is the definition of an "extras" dancer. The way I've interpreted that designation is that she's basically a prostitute. Is that correct?

    And thank you all that have contributed so far to this thread. I really appreciate your take on this issue.

  20. #20
    cameron_keys
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twin Tattoo View Post
    There seems to be a divergence of opinion in this thread. Or is there divergence? Is Paintgoddess' club the exception that proves the rule, how non-extras clubs can compete with extras clubs, and/or, by being an hour from any competition, falls into the category stated by Melonie as possible only when there's no competition that will offer extras?

    Also, I would appreciate a clearer definition of what people are calling "extras". By how some here talk, it is prostitution (HJ, BJ, out-and-out sex) while it seems others classify it as anything that breaks the local laws of contact (dancing within six inches of the customer, showing one's kitty, allowing the customer to touch you, etc.).

    Then there is the definition of an "extras" dancer. The way I've interpreted that designation is that she's basically a prostitute. Is that correct?

    And thank you all that have contributed so far to this thread. I really appreciate your take on this issue.
    "extra" is anything outside the laws and rules of that club. So for some...coming within 6 feet is an "extra" ...for others it is full sex.

    And ITgirl....going OTC is still an "extras" girl. If a custie comes in that wants extra...he can get it from you....maybe not IN the club...but he can still get it from you. He wont spend money on anyone else..he'll spend it on you because you are willing to do more. THAT's an extras girl whether you want to believe it or not.
    For someone who professes to be ok with prostitution...you sure seem to havea chip on your shoulder about your choice.
    Most girls here have no problem with prostitution...as long as it doesnt interfere with OUR money. Taking a custie away from the club to provide extras still takes his money OUT of the club.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    It used to irritate the fuck out of me when girls would set up OTC dates with guys, cause it does take money and customers out of the club. i thought if not one of the girls was willing to do it then maybe the guys would deal with it and buy dances and stop asking for motel dates, house calls, etc. But then the customers basically told me that if they don't find girls for it there at the strip club, they will find sex at massage parlors, one of which is conveniently located right next door to the club. So i guess i kinda just figure it's a lost battle. If a customer is looking for that he will look for that regardless of the number of girls, if any, that supply it. Personally, i am against meeting up with the customers OTC, even if it is nonsexual in nature, but our stupid managers actually encourage phone number exchanges.

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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by 423texas View Post
    ITgirl,

    How does dating or escorting OTC make tons of money for the club? In the example you gave, you would give a nice tip to the manager. He would make some extra money but I don't see how the club makes any extra.

    I won't mention names, but at a couple clubs back east there have been plenty of times when the mgrs actually discuss a girl's rate for a OTC date with a club custie and make deals with these girls for a cut of the cash, or run the guys credit card thru the club and pay the girl 80% or whatever. the times this was done for me, the mgmt was able to get me a price double+ what I would normally ask, so it was well worth it. They don't say it's for sex, just for a Private Party, which is legal. Some MGRS even have a list of super rich guys who they call up and invite to the club if they have an escort -type they think the guy will like.

    I guess since I've never worked in a small club I am not familiar with the social dynamic there. This stuff is normal to me because it truly is the norm in the big gown clubs I've always worked. I mean, where do you think the Feature Porn Star goes when she disappears from the club mid-shift? And why are there certain girls mgmt will always call up to VIP when big spenders come in? Because they bank, the club banks, and the girls bank.

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    Featured Member paintgoddess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by ITgirl View Post
    I've never been an Extra's Girl, and never ever will be... BUT

    1. If I meet a client in the club who wants to see me OTC, you can bet I'm giving the manager a hefty tip for letting me leave early. Said manager is now my best friend and will go out of his way to introduce me to big spenders. It's a win/win/win.

    2. If I am discreet and do not bring undue attention upon myself or the club, then who the fuck cares? I have bills to pay and a future to prepare for. My daughter deserves the absolute best I can provide, and I have a responsibility to be as successful as possible in this life. That includes finance.

    3. If you have a problem with dating or escorting OTC, then don't engage in it. But to imply that no one should engage in this practice is ridiculous. It makes the club tons of $$$, and makes us even more $$$! That's life in a free market economy.

    And by the way, I thank all of you who are repulsed by the idea of being prostitutes. Just less competition and more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for me!!!

    Oh, and off the subject, but I'm going to Sheri's Ranch on Thursday. Will update
    While you are fine with prostituting yourself, the majority of others are not. That is why they choose to work in a strip club. The majority of girls have chosen to strip for a living because they don't want to prostitute themselves! The majority want to make as much money as possible by giving away as little of themselves as they can.

    Escorting is your personal choice, but you are not an island unto yourself. Whether the act occurs in the club or out of the club a girl who prostitutes herself from the grounds of the club does take money away from dancers who choose not to engage in those acts. How?

    1. When a girl agrees to provide extras whether that does or doesn't include full sex, she devalues the "dance" and the "VIP" and "blocks of time" for other girls who are only selling those products. The privilege of making decent money (legally) is undermined.

    2. When a customer leaves the premises to have sex with a dancer who is prostituting herself out of the club, no one else can make money from him. He stops tipping dancers and payed staff, stops drinking, stops buying dances, stops paying the door fee, and stops buying VIP sessions. Everyone is hurt. And that "great" customer probably won't be back because the prostitute will probably hang onto his contact information to have him as her repeat customer, and not the club's.

    3. Strip club customers are slowly being trained to believe that they can go to the local strip club to purchase sexual favors inside clubs. Every girl that concedes to this is reinforcing the availability of extras one person at a time, and it does make a difference in the long run.

    Basically, I am repulsed the the idea of prostitutes doing their work in my strip club. I do give a fuck if a girl is running her business out of where I work because she's stealing my customers. And of course, no it doesn't make the club more money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysondra View Post
    Strippers are like ninjas. You never know how many there are or if the person next to you is one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    ...I assume you probably don't want to deal with pervs, and the guys that just don't give a fuck about money are like unicorns...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinder View Post
    I know I have said it before, and I'll say it again.... THE VAGINA IS NOT A CLOWN CAR!


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    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by paintgoddess View Post

    Basically, I am repulsed the the idea of prostitutes doing their work in my strip club. I do give a fuck if a girl is running her business out of where I work because she's stealing my customers. And of course, no it doesn't make the club more money.
    I'm not repulsed at all by prostitutes in a SC. It's just the way that the business has become, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

    But I have to agree with you that the SC doesn't make more money when there are girls taking custies OTC for extras.

    ITgirl, I think you are just trying to rationalize.

  25. #25
    cameron_keys
    Guest

    Default Re: Extras and OTCs. What can be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by 423texas View Post
    I'm not repulsed at all by prostitutes in a SC. It's just the way that the business has become, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

    But I have to agree with you that the SC doesn't make more money when there are girls taking custies OTC for extras.

    ITgirl, I think you are just trying to rationalize.
    Of course you arent repulsed by it...you are a guy. Look at it from our perspective. Guys getting infinitely more grabby..sometimes to the point of sexual assault...and/or getting cheaper because they are being trained that enough girls are ok with extras. If 10 girls let him finger her....he's going to try it with the 11th. If 10 girls meet up with him OTC for sex...hes not going to spend money on the 11th unless she does too.

    Prostitution has it's place...but it is NOT in a club. Whether you are practicing it or soliciting it...keep it out of the club.

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