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    Default A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Unlike Al Gore's useless "carbon credits" company.

    http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/...25732B0082BBFD

    The company's website, should anyone be interested, and at this point in time, I have absolutely nothing to do with them. Just ran across their link while looking for something else,

    http://www.greenesthost.com/

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    very cool. I have been interested in solar for years and would like to use more of it at home. So far we have it for the hot water heater, pool and jacuzzi but someday I hope to use it for other power intensive items in the house too.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Al Gore is the antichrist, he must die!

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^^^ C'mon now is that any way to talk about the guy who invented the INternet and discovered global warming. For crying out loud, he may get a Nobel Prize - Yikes!!!!

    And besides the anti-christ is already serving his second term in the WH ...

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapaholic View Post
    ^^^ C'mon now is that any way to talk about the guy who invented the INternet and discovered global warming. For crying out loud, he may get a Nobel Prize - Yikes!!!!

    And besides the anti-christ is already serving his second term in the WH ...
    According to Phaedrus, all of the world's ills can be blamed on Al Gore. I'm just supporting the cause, man!

    "Have you ever been to American wedding? Where is the vodka, where's marinated herring?" - GB
    "And do the cats give a shit? No, they do not. Why? Because they're cats."-from The Onion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia M
    If a cupcake was tossed at me... well, I'd only be upset if it missed my mouth

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^^^ only 1/2 of the world's ills. The other half can be blamed on Bill Clinton.

    PS re global warming, Chicago is setting weather records today ... for COLD temperatures.

    re solar energy, if you subtract the gov't subsidies, it's a huge loser. WITH gov't subsidies it's merely a loser.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    re solar energy, if you subtract the gov't subsidies, it's a huge loser. WITH gov't subsidies it's merely a loser.
    not true. My small system has already paid for itself and I am saving $ on my energy costs every month too.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^^^ perhaps you think so, but what was the ACTUAL cost of manufacturing your solar energy system versus the price you were charged for it ? How much money did the manufacturer receive in the form of 'production tax credits' plus grant money from the gov't (= other taxpayers) ? How much money did you yourself receive in the form of tax credits / deductions ?

    In other words, if your solar equipment manufacturer had to operate on an equal footing with other manufacturers in non-subsidized industries ... had to pay equivalent taxes ... had to fund their own research etc. ... what price would they have to charge you in order to be profitable ? If that price was therefore twice as high, and if you did not also receive a gov't funded tax credit / deduction i.e. other taxpayers paying for part of the cost of your solar equipment purchase, would you still be 'money ahead' on your investment ?

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^ lmfao-that was damn near a circular argument!

    You are such an hardcore idealouge, it's really funny to me Seriously though, if solar were such a "loser" then no one would EVER use it much less large companies like GM and Staples who btw are using solar arrays on their buildings. The fact of the matter is that more and more people, as well as companies are incorporating it's use into their business and or personal property. They sure aren't doing it because solar is a "loser" either. They are doing it because solar is a winner!
    Last edited by Rinna; 09-16-2007 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    According to Phaedrus, all of the world's ills can be blamed on Al Gore. I'm just supporting the cause, man!
    Actually, I only consider him to be responsible for about 5% of the world's ills, if that much. Another 75% is from the Congress, including both those serving from many years ago, as well as in the present. Included in this figure would be recent past Presidents, whether Republican or Democrat, and their Cabinets.

    The other 20% isn't something anyone in the U.S. can do anything about. E.g., coal-fired electric plants in China, or Putin dissolving the Russian government (although this seems to have more to do with him seeing his hand-picked candidate as the next president of Russia).

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^^^ Lets not forget WalMart!!! They gotta account for something!

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    if solar were such a "loser" then no one would EVER use it much less large companies like GM and Staples who btw are using solar arrays on their buildings
    yes they are ... paid for in part by direct 'production tax credit' subsidies to the solar equipment makers which allows them to sell solar equipment at below production cost prices, and paid for in another part by EPAct federal tax credits for GM and Staples which offset their purchase cost, plus paid for in yet another part by gov't guaranteed low cost loans to GM and Staples to facilitate the purchase.

    Another less tangible part of the 'payoff' is reduced litigation costs if these corporations are politically correct enough to put forth a partially 'green' public image, thus reducing / escaping some degree of local protests against present and future business operations.

    However, all of these issues do not change the fact that, in and of itself, the true cost of producing and purchasing solar equipment vs the corresponding true energy savings amounts to a loser. What these other issues do is to subsidize the solar equipment industry, and to subsidize those businesses and individuals who choose to get involved with solar equipment, at the expense of other US taxpayers, because the out of pocket costs involved for particular customers to purchase and install solar equipment has been made to 'appear' justifiable. However, that 'appearance' of justifiability only occurs because of the involuntary contribution of tax money taken from other US taxpayers to cover the costs of the production tax credits, grants, purchaser tax credits / deductions, low cost gov't guaranteed loans etc. which is not being accounted for.

    For the record, it is exactly this sort of stealth taxpayer subsidy economics which is being used to make other green technologies 'appear' justifiable ... i.e. ethanol, wind generators and a host of others.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-16-2007 at 06:14 PM.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapaholic View Post
    ^^^ Lets not forget WalMart!!! They gotta account for something!
    I have a rant someone else about how Walmart doesn't care about anything except becoming a monopoly and the all mighty buck......They don't support enviro friendly products or animal friendly products.I hate Walmart and absolutely refuse to give them 1 penny for anything.I could go off on a rant about how the human race and our arroagnce is the real problem but I won't.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    yes they are ... paid for in part by direct 'production tax credit' subsidies to the solar equipment makers which allows them to sell solar equipment at below production cost prices, and paid for in another part by EPAct federal tax credits for GM and Staples which offset their purchase cost, plus paid for in yet another part by gov't guaranteed low cost loans to GM and Staples to facilitate the purchase.

    Another less tangible part of the 'payoff' is reduced litigation costs if these corporations are politically correct enough to put forth a partially 'green' public image, thus reducing / escaping some degree of local protests against present and future business operations.

    However, all of these issues do not change the fact that, in and of itself, the true cost of producing and purchasing solar equipment vs the corresponding true energy savings amounts to a loser. What these other issues do is to subsidize the solar equipment industry, and to subsidize those businesses and individuals who choose to get involved with solar equipment, at the expense of other US taxpayers, because the out of pocket costs involved for particular customers to purchase and install solar equipment has been made to 'appear' justifiable. However, that 'appearance' of justifiability only occurs because of the involuntary contribution of tax money taken from other US taxpayers to cover the costs of the production tax credits, grants, purchaser tax credits / deductions, low cost gov't guaranteed loans etc. which is not being accounted for.

    For the record, it is exactly this sort of stealth taxpayer subsidy economics which is being used to make other green technologies 'appear' justifiable ... i.e. ethanol, wind generators and a host of others.

    ~
    So it's ok for you to take a tax credit and thus have other tax payers subsidize your numerous boob jobs but yet it's not ok for solar or any of the various other green technologies to get one? Interesting pov you've got there

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    ^^^ apples and oranges ... in this case a legitimate business expense tax deduction attempting to be compared to targeted gov't subsidy payments. In this case a concession pryed from the IRS tax court on the basis of equal treatment under the law versus a legislator approved item in federal and state annual budgets to specifically subsidize one particular alternative energy technology.

    Walmart doesn't care about anything except becoming a monopoly and the all mighty buck.
    Oh, you mean just like Microsoft ?



    (snip)" By David Lawsky and Sabina Zawadzki

    BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Microsoft suffered a decisive antitrust defeat on Monday when a European Union court upheld a landmark ruling that the world's largest software maker had abused its dominant market position to crush rivals.

    The second-highest EU court dismissed the company's appeal on all key points against the 2004 European Commission ruling and upheld a record 497 million euro ($689.9 million) fine.

    A jubilant EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said the ruling should lead to a "significant drop" in Microsoft's 95 percent market share. While Microsoft's top lawyer said it would affect the way the company markets its products in future.

    Shares in the U.S. software giant were down 1 percent in early New York trade after the Luxembourg-based court's ruling, suggesting investors were not overly concerned about the implications for Microsoft's successful business model.

    "Its clearly a major defeat for Microsoft. There is no doubt it will spur the Commission on to regulate Microsoft much more significantly," said Chris Bright, a British competition lawyer.

    The court said Microsoft was unjustified in tying new applications to its Windows operating system in a way that squeezed out rivals and harmed consumer choice."(snip)

    Microsoft's continued ability to operate in arguably blatant violation of anti-trust laws is yet another example of US gov't policy 'subsidizing' a particular business. However, in this case the legislators were smart enough to avoid doing it through the spending of tax money, and instead allow the existance of a 'stealth' subsidy based on non-competitive overpricing. But hey at least with this 'stealth' overpricing subsidy it is only people who buy computers who are being forced to pay out extra money. In the case of direct gov't subsidies, all taxpayers wind up being forced to pay out extra money (even those collecting the subsidies themselves this year, but who will have to pay out EVERY year).

    Of course Microsoft has the management perspective to contribute a tiny part of their 'stealth' subsidized profits towards a few green causes and liberal politicians, which serves very well to deflect attention away from the tacit US gov't approved existance of their 'stealth' subsidy as well as to cultivate a public image that they are a 'good corporate citizen'. However, it would appear that the europeans don't share the same tacit approval of a 'stealth' subsidy policy, and want it removed so that their own software industries can compete on a level playing field.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-17-2007 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ apples and oranges ...
    no, actually it's not. Both situations are such that the tax payers are asked or forced (depending on a person's pov) to fund something that they may or may not support or agree with through tax credits.

    This means that I, for example have to help you pay for your implants and you have to help people like me pay for my solar. I sure as hell don't agree with having to help fund your implants and I understand you don't like having to help fund solar energy. But this is just the way things work here in the good old USA

    I could better respect you position on tax credits for solar if you wanted to do away with all tax credits in general, but you don't. You just seem to want to do away with tax credits that you personally don't like, take or want to take. Yet you want to keep the ones you do like, use or want to use.

    Basicaly you want people to subsidize your stuff but not the other way around. It doesn't work that way. Tax credits are a tit for tat thing. Forgive the pun.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    This means that I, for example have to help you pay for your implants and you have to help people like me pay for my solar.
    You're way off on this one. When I got implants larger than 1000cc which qualified as a business expense tax deduction, I got ZERO in the form of tax credits i.e. direct reimbursement from the gov't trough. What I did get is a tax deduction against the additional earnings which my business investment generated ... in exactly the same manner as any business gets a tax deduction for investing in equipment that increases their productivity / profitability.

    Over the multi-year 'life' of my professional sized breast implants, the gov't received far more dollars in added tax revenues because of my increased earnings than they 'missed out on' by allowing the original business expense tax deduction. As a side note, the implant manufacturer and plastic surgeon received no payment from the gov't trough to subsidize the purchase price of my implants. Thus the ONLY source of funding for my breast implant tax deduction was my own future year's increased tax payments.

    On the other hand, where solar equipment is concerned, the fact that you or anybody else purchased and installed solar equipment results in essentially zero additional future year tax revenues - because the solar equipment does not increase your taxable income. The solar equipment manufacturer received grant money from the gov't to assist in product development and research, which in theory would have resulted in increased future year business tax revenue. However, no such future year business tax revenue actually materialized because the gov't also bestowed production tax credits on the solar equipment manufacturer which not only wipe out their tax liability but also can result in a cash tax refund if they are not profitable on their own (which is NOT true of my breast implants ... if I didn't make a profit from dancing the business expense tax deduction would have been worthless). Additionally, you as the purchaser of solar equipment also received a personal tax credit, which not only wipes out other tax liability but also can result in a cash tax refund if the amount of the personal tax credit exceeds the amount of your other tax liability. All of these tax credits are paid for by collecting a higher tax rate from other taxpayers, with a tiny element of reimbursement actually being contributed by collecting a higher tax rate in future years from purchasers of solar equipment along with all other taxpayers.

    Apples and oranges for both the 'manufacturer' and for the 'customer'

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    1. Did anybody actually read about the company mentioned by the OP? All solar powered. Whether subsidized or not (it doesn't say in the article), it's pretty cool.

    2. Since Al Gore has claimed credit for stuff that he hasn't done, he can take blame for stuff he didn't cause.

    3. Not all of the world's ills are on Clinton and Gore. For instance, an unbalanced budget and war in Iraq. OK, that was just a joke. I don't mean to derail.

    4. (Later edit)) WalMart. Forgot this one. WalMart is a symptom, not the syndrome. The syndrome is the "corporatizing" of America and the world, whether it's strip club management, insurance companies, computer repairs, health service, whatever. WalMart is merely one of the most conspicuous examples.

    5. Global warming is a fact. One anomalous cold snap somewhere cannot counter the massive amounts of data available. In fact, you would expect spikes and valleys. (Even the vast majority of those who protested that global warming wasn't happening have now switched their tune to say it's not human-caused. And that may be correct, although it's not the opinion of the majority of the scientific community.)

    6. A claim was made that "my solar system works because I've saved money on it." That presumably is quantifiable. A counterclaim was made that, "No it doesn't, because of the subsidies." However, that was not quantified. Just a claim made that "it's a loser." That is not a good argument to talk someone out of getting a solar system if they will see a net benefit on their energy consumption, not to mention their taxes.

    7. A subsidy is a subsidy, whether it's a tax deduction or a reimbursement. There's no evidence that anyone or anything mentioned anywhere on this thread got a reimbursement (although just about everyone on this thread undoubtedly has gotten tax deductions from these various things that are mentioned). The purpose of a subsidy is to encourage a certain development. Obviously, the government wants Melonie to make more taxable money from big implants. Obviously, the government wants to see solar energy promoted because of solar energy's public benefit. If solar energy gets better breaks than bags of silicon or saline, then presumably, the government perceives a bigger benefit from it.

    8. All this is quite a diversion from the OP. It's pretty cool to have an operation that's completely solar-powered. Sneering about alleged hidden costs doesn't change that.
    Last edited by Jay Zeno; 09-17-2007 at 07:54 PM.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Thanks to JayZeno for his comments above and he's right about the diversion from the OP. So with that in mind, I'm not going to give my original reply to Melonie's last post. He said it better than I could have anyway. Sorry for my part in the threadjack how about we all just get back to the OP topic.

    Agreed ?

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    I agree that the solar powered web host is a 'cool' idea ... as long as no claims are made that such an installation is actually cost effective from a return on investment standpoint or operating / maintenance cost standpoint.

    And just to set the record straight re the reality and size of solar energy subsidies ...

    per the tax credit subsidy payout for solar electricity produced by businesses is 1.5 cents/kWh for all energy produced over a 10 year period.

    per the amount of federal grant money for solar energy demonstration programs will average some $45 million dollars per year over the next 5 years - with state money added to this total. To complicate matters further, there are dozens of separate federal and state funded grant programs involving solar energy. Without examining the books of particular solar equipment manufacturers, however, there is no way to know how big of a slice of the grant money pie any particular manufacturer received, or how this breaks down in terms of total grant money received versus total solar equipment produced by a particular manufacturer.

    per individuals purchasing solar equipment are entitled to receive a 30% subsidy payment tax credit from the federal gov't. Individual states then tack on an additional subsidy payment tax credit, which runs another 15% in California for example per .

    Thus it is not unreasonable to claim that 50% of the actual costs involved in manufacturing and purchasing residential solar equipment come from someone else's pocket. This is far from a trivial amount of subsidy !!!


    PS Rinna it was you that raised the diversion, by injecting the alleged point that 'your small system has already paid for itself', creating a strong (and arguably very incorrect) insinuation that the solar web server's solar equipment would also pay for itself. I agree that at this point in the thread, readers either understand the financial subsidy point or they don't. In either case they are helping to pay for those subsidies.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-17-2007 at 08:32 PM.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinna View Post
    no, actually it's not. Both situations are such that the tax payers are asked or forced (depending on a person's pov) to fund something that they may or may not support or agree with through tax credits.

    This means that I, for example have to help you pay for your implants and you have to help people like me pay for my solar. I sure as hell don't agree with having to help fund your implants and I understand you don't like having to help fund solar energy. But this is just the way things work here in the good old USA

    I could better respect you position on tax credits for solar if you wanted to do away with all tax credits in general, but you don't. You just seem to want to do away with tax credits that you personally don't like, take or want to take. Yet you want to keep the ones you do like, use or want to use.

    Basicaly you want people to subsidize your stuff but not the other way around. It doesn't work that way. Tax credits are a tit for tat thing. Forgive the pun.


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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    PS Rinna it was you that raised the diversion, by injecting the alleged point that 'your small system has already paid for itself',
    omfg if it's going to get you to move on and let this discussion move forward on topic then fine, whatever you say Happy now? Great! Now let's all just move on.

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinna View Post
    Great! Now let's all just move on.


    This is actually quite funny, coming from you. Move on...hilarious!

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Quote Originally Posted by VenusGoddess View Post


    This is actually quite funny, coming from you. Move on...hilarious!
    *high fives*

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    Default Re: A company actually doing something useful about global warming!

    Their plan sounds good from the outside. I don't see how they are keeping the solar panels from degrading in the desert. Blowing sand scours them turning panels opaque, heat degrades connections, the battery system is good for five years, possibly longer if the have those massive phone company batteries (the model escapes me). Will the system be relevant in ten years time with the speed (mmores law) that computer equipment develops?

    After the "real" expense to manufacture and the damage to the environment in the mining, refining, and manufacture of the components to build it. When in the buildings lifespan do costs outweigh the expenditures, and the building is truly green.

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